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Probiotics . . .

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MikeS
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Posted on Saturday, October 17, 2009 - 8:06 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'd like to add probiotics into my routine.

I suspect that the softgel gelcap form factor of the one I was using is probably gelatin based.

I suppose I could find one that doesn't need to be enteric coated, open the cap into something, and use it that way. (no sense defeating an enteric coating and having the friendly bacteria killed in the harsh stomach acid).

Or, I suppose I could either make home-made yogurt from whole milk, and not add anything bad like pectin,

Or, I could use Chobani all natural greek yogurt (non-fat plain) - only ingredient is cultured pasturized nonfat milk (although I guess some would take issue with the non-fat'ness).

Since opening a probiotic supplement which isn't enteric coated is probably the most potent form factor, I suspect that would probably be the best.

What do you think?

What do you do?

Thanks,
Mike
Di
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Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 3:08 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm always for getting nutrition from foods vs. supplements whenever possible. I eat Dannon All Natural Plain Yogurt 32 oz. Ingredients: cultured grade A milk. The only thing I regret is that it isn't organic. I guess I should go back to making my own, it really wasn't that hard.
kristy
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Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 3:34 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with Di about getting nutrition from foods vs. supplements. I have trouble with pasteurized dairy and can't always get raw so I can't rely on yogurt. I ferment my own veggies like sauerkraut, kimchee, or cortido.

All pickles, relishes, salsas and condiments originally started as fermented foods but were converted to vinegar concoctions (vinegar is a fermented product itself) to standardize results for industrial food manufacturing. Of course uniformity isn't so important for home applications. I have a problem with vinegar but have had no adverse reactions to my home fermented veggies even though I am very sensitive.

One thing that is important to remember is that the probiotics in fermented veggies are very strong. You should start by eating a teaspoon a day and build slowly until you can eat as much as you want (and you will want more!). This means that you can start with a quart wide mouth mason jar, a few veggies (peeled and shredded or sliced thinly - carrots are good to start with), sea salt and a wooden spoon. Make one quart and try it to see if you like it. I have loved every combo that I have tried except plain sauerkraut (oddly enough since it is the most famous of all ferments).

Tip: One teaspoon of juice cures heartburn instantly.
Di
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Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 5:55 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

kristy,

So you just put the vegetable(s) in the jar, mix sea salt (how much?) in with wooden spoon....and then what?
kristy
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Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 9:41 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Di,

I make mine by shredding veggies in the food processor, add Celtic sea salt to the veggies and moosh (technical term) the veggies together to mix the salt evenly and get the juice flowing. I use slightly less than 1 TBSP per quart of veggies. Taste it before you put it in the jars and it should be salty, but not so salty you can't stand it. If that makes you nervous you can also use the scientific method for calculating the amount of salt here: http://spindlesandspices.blogspot.com/2008/03/how-to-make-sauerkraut-choucroute.html.

I use a canning funnel to get the veg into the mason jar and use a wooden spoon to pack it down as I go. Make sure the veg is covered with juice (all veggies I have tried made enough juice) and leave about 1 or 1 1/2 inches head room. Put metal lid and ring on just tight. I put mine in the office out of any drafts on a shelf near a lava lamp (we keep the house very cool so I feel this helps to keep the ferment at a steady temp - probably unnecessary). Cover with an old sheet and leave it alone. I look at it every day and open it once the lid looks slightly domed to smell and taste it. They are ready most of the time by 4 or 5 days. Also, I set mine inside an old 13x9 plastic container to catch any overflow - very important. I don't worry about them exploding because I have had them overflow even with the lids on. Always open over the sink because they will probably fizz out some juice. The only problem that I have had is all the juice fizzed out and the top layer of veg got dark. After further experimentation, I realized that it only happened to the beets. They create a lot of fizzing (must be high sugar content) and then fizz out all the juice. Next time I added a little brine (just very salty purified water) and less beets and it worked but I noticed after they were in the fridge a couple of days the juice was gone (they soaked it back up). Maybe it would be best to combine beets with another veggie, but they sure are delicious.

You can absolutely make sauerkraut with red cabbage, chinese cabbage, a mix of red and green, even collards or brussells sprouts. I am not a big fan of sauerkraut myself. I made some plain and some with onion and carrot but wasn't crazy about either. They were good but I had others that were so much better.....The best by far is a mixture of carrots, ginger, garlic, and onions. This is fantastic even if you happen to get a little overzealous with the ginger like I did.

Just be brave and give it a try. I promise you will be able to tell if something went wrong. Your nose will not let you eat a ferment gone bad. Don't worry about the smell while it is fermenting since that can be pretty strong - just go by the smell when finished. I have about five different kinds in the fridge right now.

I have really enjoyed the fermented veggies because I have had to avoid vinegar for over two years. I missed it so much. I can't believe it is so easy to make your own veggie relishes and pickles without vinegar. I am really struggling with taking it slow - I can't wait until I can use the juice as I would vinegar.

By the way, veg ferments not only provide healthy bacteria for the gut, they also stimulate acid production and aid in digestion, hence all the traditional kraut and meat type recipes and the eating relish with big dinners (cranberry sauce on Thanksgiving and ketchup on burgers originated with ferments). Contrary to popular belief, heartburn is usually caused by LOW stomach acid production which is what gave me the idea to try the juice for heartburn.

Two great books: Wild Fermentation by Sandor Katz and Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon
Di
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Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 7:41 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

kristy, Thanks so much for all the great information. Mine will be fermenting at about 78 degrees fahrenheit (26 C). How will I know when they are ready to eat? Do the veggies taste pretty salty? Do you rinse them before eating? How long do they keep in the frig?
kristy
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Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 12:18 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Di, I think the warmer the temp, the less time it takes to ferment. Yours will probably only take 2 or 3 days. You can really eat them anytime, but you can taste them after day 2 and see if they are sufficiently sour. My jar lid pops when I open it and sometimes it even fizzes over like a soda that is shaken. I believe that is because of the fermentation process so you will be able to tell if something is happening.

Mine taste pretty salty before I ferment them (like an oversalted salad) but after fermenting they are not as salty but quite tart. They are to be eaten as a relish or condiment so you don't have to worry about too much salt intake. Don't rinse because a lot of the beneficial bacteria are in the juice.

They are a living food so the taste will mature even after you put them in the fridge. The koreans eat tons of kimchee and once it gets too sour to eat, they make soup or pancakes out of it. I don't know how long it lasts because my oldest jar is only a month or so old and it still tastes great. Back in the day, people used to ferment an entire barrel of sauerkraut in the fall and keep it in their root cellars all winter long. That's where they got their vitamin C, not from imported citrus fruit. Fermented veggies are always higher in vitamins and minerals than their unfermented counterparts just like yogurt and buttermilk are better than milk.

If you ever have a failed batch like I did you can just put it into your compost pile - it's good for your compost. (One of my earliest tries I used a plastic lid and I think it let in too much air.) My dog gets some of the fermented veg sometimes if he is having stomach upset (like when he scams too much cheese from the kids). My daughter eats a tiny bite after each bite of liver that she has to eat (with her nose pinched shut - she really hates liver) and insists she couldn't do it otherwise. I actually started swishing with the juice because of a tooth problem. I have an infection and can't tolerate the antibiotics so someone recommended I chew a piece of raw garlic and swish with cultured vegetable juice. It is really working, too. I hate raw garlic but it absolutely works. Maybe there is a market for garlic mouth wash. HaHa
Di
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Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 2:43 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Your posts are wonderful, keep 'em coming. I'm an excited to try the ferment, but it will have to wait until next week as I will be moving to my winter home Monday.
EmilyS
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Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 3:39 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with Di. Kristy, I just love reading your posts and seeing the amazing progress you have made with your health and how creative you have become to find answers. You too Di. It's great to have some movement on this board and to hear from others that have similar diets.

Please keep posting- there is so much that we can learn from each other.
kristy
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Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 7:18 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, guys. I love sharing information on what works for me. Most people I see in person are not the least bit interested in any of this so it is really nice to have somewhere to discuss it. If you try the fermented veggies you will see why I am so excited about them. It reminds me of my first pan of successful homemade biscuits, my homemade baby food and my first batch of tomato relish years ago. Now I wish I could tolerate tomatoes so I could make a fermented version of it. :-)
LisaS
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Posted on Wednesday, October 28, 2009 - 5:54 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kristy, thanks for your posts...I make sauerkraut but haven't been brave enough to try the other vegies for some reason.

A question for all of you, though. I've heard that fermentation releases glutamates...so wouldn't making your own yogurt/kefir/etc produce higher glutamate foods? I've been wondering about this for a while!
MikeS
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Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 9:00 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just a guess, but wouldn't sauerkraut be better than say yogurt from a free glutamic acid perspective because it has less protein, and less bound glutamate to begin with?

Mike
kristy
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Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 9:15 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Lisa, You really should try some - you can make fermented salsa (very popular but probably out for the fga sensitive), mustard, sweet pickles, spiced lemons, pickled garlic, apple butter, mango chutney, etc. Imagine eating all those things and getting probiotics from them.

Here is a link to a free e-book: http://nourishedkitchen.com/get-cultured/

Mike, I would think that is generally true since I know you are referring to pasteurized milk yogurt. I have no idea how much glutamates are in raw milk since there seems to be no data on that but I do know from personal experience that raw milk yogurt doesn't bother us at all. We really loved the pasteurized milk yogurt's texture (more custard-like) but we just couldn't tolerate it. I would venture a guess that raw milk glutamate levels are *much* lower than pasteurized milk.

This does bring up an interesting point that has occurred to me. I would think that veggie ferments would be more likely to cause glutamate problems according the glutamate level of veggies used but I will just stay away from tomatoes and mushrooms for now. I'll keep you guys posted if I happen to ferment something that bothers me.
evelyn
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 6:52 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello friends - came here looking for some help again. Seems as soon as I get one problem resolved, another crops up. Thankfully, this one is just a nuisance.

I am looking for a probiotic supplement (read the info above - yogurt gives me migraines and I don't like sour/fermented foods) as I am now having recurring and persistent yeast issues. Wondering if anyone knows of a good supplement that is not is a gel cap - I do ok with them for a time, but taking anything in a gel cap daily, eventually the issues outweigh the benefits.
sara
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 8:36 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://www.customprobiotics.com/products.htm

but fairly expensive - I get the 11 strain - it is a bulk powder
evelyn
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2012 - 7:43 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ouch! Thanks, Sara. What is the dosage and how long does it last? I'm about to check out the ingredients on my yogurt starter...
Deb A.
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Posted on Monday, July 30, 2012 - 9:19 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I remove the probiotics from the capsule and mix with some water and drink. Look for ones that contain the safest fillers.
evelyn
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Posted on Monday, July 30, 2012 - 11:42 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Deb - that sounds like it will fit my budget a little better. Can you suggest a good brand?
sara
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Posted on Monday, July 30, 2012 - 9:56 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

it does make a major dent in the checking account

I bought some other before this - http://www.luckyvitamin.com/p-29630-extreme-health-usa-probiotics-120-billion-25-oz - those - actually what they were wasn't same as what was at manufacturer's site

but I reacted to the FOS in them - chicory - was more sensitive to MSG and other free glutamate at the time than I am now but I got lots of palpitations with those probiotics so I wanted to get away from any FOS and ended up with the customprobiotics ones

right now I am actually taking cheaper ones ---- and I do as Deb said as I can handle the FOS - I dump the capsules out - no matter what kind of capsule - gelatin or veggie - I dump them out
AdaLovelace
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Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 1:11 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've found that the Ultimate Flora brand seems to be of high quality, and they don't use gelatin in their capsules. They come in veggie caps... not sure exactly what that entails.

http://www.amazon.com/Renew-Life-Ultimate-Critical-Billion/dp/B000CMKC5Y
Di
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Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - 2:46 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ada, Do you mind me asking what method you used to determine that that brand is of high quality. I've been wondering if ConsumerLab.com is a good basis to use for quality - I just don't know how to tell if a supplement is of good quality....
LisaS
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Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 9:41 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I started reading at the beginning of the thread by mistake and was enjoying the fermenting discussion and then realized I had already written in the thread :-) Anyway, I wanted to add something I learned recently, which is that fermenting foods releases Vit K2. K2 is a pretty powerful glutamate blocker. Nature's own regulatory mechanism, I suspect, since fermenting foods releases glutamates too. Cool, huh?

Second, for those looking for probiotics but don't like fermented vegies, ask around your area for anyone that has water kefir grains. It's like making your own probiotic, dairy-free soda. And it's a fun hobby :-) A friend of mine dehydrates the grains and then they can be shipped but I've never tried it that way. If all else fails, you can purchase them. Here's a good site with a ton of info: http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html
AdaLovelace
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Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - 6:13 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Di--
Intuitively I've discontinued supplements completely thanks to the encouragement from people on this board! I say that Ultimate Flora is good quality just from my own personal bias which isn't the most scientific resource. Haha. ;)

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