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Suspicious Food Ingredients

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Deb S
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 6:03 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What is "oat syrup"? Is it likely to contain glutamate? I have been getting Breadshop's Honey Gone Nuts granola, because it is the only granola I have found that doesn't have molasses, flavoring and/or other ingredients that give me problems. This last bag has a different smell. It smelled faintly like blueberry flavoring, and I figured they must have used the same equipment without cleaning it in between batches. I finally thought to check the ingredients today and saw a new ingredient that wasn't there before, oat syrup. Why can't they just leave well enough alone? When granola first came out and for a long time it was just simple, wholesome ingredients; now they have to go and "improve" on it until it is just as processed and filled with toxic ingredients as all the other breakfast cereals!
Deb S
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 5:57 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think I have answered my own question. Oat syrup and oat syrup solids (dehydrated oat syrup) appear to be relatively newer "natural grain sweeteners" made through a process of enzyme hydrolysis. Oats are high in protein to begin with at 13 percent, so when broken down into free amino acids as occurs with hydrolysis, there is sure to be some free glutamate. A product description for "CereSweet" oat syrup solids includes its application as a flavor enhancer:

http://www.grainmillers.com/ceresweet.htm

Here's a link to a description of various types of "natural" sweeteners:

http://www.healthproductsbusiness.com/archives/naturalsweeteners.htm
Deb A.
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 8:08 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Depending on your degree of sensitivity to free glutamate, you may be able to tolerate a certain amount of oat or rice syrup, since they are not as high in natural glutamate as a grain like corn, and consequently, corn syrup. I react to "invert" syrup or sugar, but can tolerate a little "brown rice syrup". Barley must be higher in natural glutamate, because when it's sprouted and roasted to make malted barley, I react with terribly itchy skin, if I get it by mistake.
Deb S
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 9:27 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Deb, I think I've heard that sprouting anything (grains, legumes) increases protein content, hence one of the reasons to consume sprouts.

I have been eating a healthy-sized bowl of the granola 4-5 times per week for months. The last couple times I got the same granola from the bulk food section prior to getting this last sealed bag, I noticed the same smell, so it has been about 5 weeks I've been eating the oat syrup version. Also about a month ago I started having more frequent and intense reaction symptoms, particularly a really stiff, sore neck (more on the right side, making it difficult to turn my head), and had a devil of a time figuring out what to blame. I eliminated everything I could think of (things I was using with no problems before), except the granola, and the symptoms improved. Now I believe it was a combination of the oat syrup and other things building up in my system and acting together to cause the symptoms.

I was pondering the connection between using acid or enzyme hydrolysis of cereal starches to create a sweet flavor, and the fact that aspartame is made of two amino acids, aspartic acid and phenylalanine. It's probably more than just free glutamic acid at work here, more likely an amino acid "soup." As Dr. Blaylock said in his book, "Excitotoxins: The Taste That Kills," hydrolyzed vegetable protein has at least three excitotoxins (plus carcinogenic substances) in it: glutamic acid, aspartic acid, and l-cysteine.
Deb S
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 9:33 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I forgot to add that Breadshop's was purchased not too long ago by Hain Food Group, which is owned by Westsoy. That no doubt explains the change. Use less honey, add oat syrup, save $ and enhance flavor.
Deb S
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 9:38 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Clarification: Hain Food Group includes Westsoy and Breadshop, plus Health Valley and several other brands.

http://www.westsoy.com/hain/products/index.html
Deb A.
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 10:24 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Deb, you have had to play the game many of us have...major detective work. Sounds like you were successful, thank goodness. Any highly processed protein food is more than likely to contain free glutamic acid and who knows what other excitotoxins! I have never eaten the same cereal consecutively like you did with the granola, so you have a good way of making the deduction the way you did. I like eggs in the morning, or cooked cracked brown rice, farina, oatmeal, grapefruit or my own canned fruit, or toast made from homemade bread, or a combination of the above. My husband likes to make waffles or pancakes on the weekends, which is a real treat. Occasionally, I make my own granola, usually with oatmeal (not Quaker...for some reason, it bothers me), my own dried fruits, almonds, applesauce mixed with a little oil and sugar or honey, a little whole wheat flour, and a little cinnamon.
MEMorrisNJ
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 7:55 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For breakfast, I sometimes have quinoa (a high protein grain) for breakfast as an alternative to my oatmeal or shredded wheat. I grind it in a mill so that it has a smoother consistency -- similar to oatmeal and after it is cooked, I add a little Kosher salt. I find it leaves me very satisfied for the entire morning.
Carol H
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2000 - 8:13 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Be aware that the Heinz, the ketchup maker just bought the Hain company. Also, Kellog's just bought Worthington Foods. The big boys are buying the organic and natural foods suppliers. This does not bode well.
Hoteru
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2000 - 9:56 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all. Thank you for all your posting which helped me have a healthy holiday.
I noticed that the Health Valley chicken and beef broth that come in cardbard cartons and are labeled no msg are back after being off the shelf at both of my health food stores. I used the ones clearly labeled no msg without a problem in the past. They also have soups that do not list no msg on the front and I don't use those at all.
HOWEVER the reappearing cartons that have no msg on the front now have the last listed ingredient as natural flavors or natural flavoring. I am not buying this, won't take a chance.
I have sent an email to Hain asking them exectly what is in their natural flavoring. I'll pass on their response.
Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 8:33 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I need help in finding a butter without added ingredients. I noticed that the organic Horizon unsalted butter now contains "natural flavors". I contacted the company but they would not divulge what was in the natural flavors. When I asked if specific ingredients (such as carragean, etc) was included, they never answered me. I am so depressed. Just when I find something which works, they change the ingredients. Some butters have sweet cream and microbial cultures (the European way of making butter). Are these safe? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Gerry Bush
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 8:59 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Personally, I cannot tolerate any additives to butter. I look for only cream or cream and salt as ingredients. Horizon is a dangerous company. I have had trouble with their milk. I suggest you look for a small local dairy as usually they are additive free. That's what I do here. The local dairy additive-free butter is in our supermarket along side the big name brands.
As to the European butters: I recently bought Irish made butter and had my usual MSG reaction. The butter was very yellow and I now don't trust them either. MSG is in Europe since the late 80's.
Deb A.
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 8:59 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cream itself is largely fat with some milk solids. The only problem, and it may be minimal considering the low amount of protein that it might effect, is that the culture might create some free glutmate from the milk solids that are present. But when a company refuses to tell you what is in the "Natural Favors", that's usually a red flag. You might post what part of the country you are from, and visitors may be able to inform you about some of the products they use in that area of the country. I use Rose Valley butter from Oregon. Some companies will ship it by the box. But keep looking and consider trying some that just have annatto added and nothing else and see how you do. Hope you have luck. If all else fails, and you have found a safe cream, whip it until it becomes butter.
MEMorrisNJ
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2000 - 12:48 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Carol H. had previously recommended Breakstone's Natural Butter which is sold in the NY/NJ area. (I don't know about its availability elsewhere.)

When I am not concerned about clogging my arteries and get tired of extra virgin olive oil, I have been using Breakstone's Natural salted butter with no reactions. (Usually, I am very sensitive to glutamates.)

Question: I seem to recall reading that salt free butter is better than salted butter because the salted version is made with cream that is bad. Does anyone know anything about this? What is the reference source?
Connie
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 9:58 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Putting the salt in the butter keeps it from becoming rancid, its used as a preservative.

Salt free butter is sometimes called sweet cream butter.

With refrigeration, each will keep well.
Connie
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 10:06 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Auxigro Alert - found in apples in Md.

Purchased several apples (Rome variety) at Safeway. They were especially big and unblemished. The skin was very waxy looking and very tough. Within a 1/2 hour, I started with muscle cramping and have hardly slept the past 2 nights, I felt so wired (my usual MSG reaction).

Up til now I haven't had a problem with produce, hate to see this happening!
Deb A.
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 12:45 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Connie, it may be AuxiGro or a copycat chemical, but it may also be the new sprays that they are using to "wax" the skins. They can contain hydrolyzed proteins, and a variety of new chemcial preservatives. You can actually go to your grocer and ask him to give you the number and address of the supplier who can track down the process plant number. I peel my apples before I eat them whenever I suspect that they are sprayed this way. Also, Jack Samuels said that hydrolyzed protein is used because it fills in any dimpled areas and smooths them out better than anything else that has been tried. I am so sorry that you reacted that badly. We are truly under a chemcial assault in this country. Sadly, we are labeled as alarmists when we try to warn people. But we are in good company. Many positive changes have been made, due to alarmists.
Carol H
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 5:11 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually, three things speed rancidity. Heat, light and oxygen. Refrigerating butter slows rancidity, which occurs when chemical bonds in a fatty acid react with oxygen. The reason food processors hydrogenate oils is to make them as stable to rancidity and oxidation as saturated fats like butter. On the other hand, salt is usually used to bind the water in foods to keep microbes from using it. Salt preserves food from microbes, whereas, refrigeration preserves oils and fats from rancidity.
Anonymous
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2000 - 9:25 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For Deb A.: What is annatto? I have seen that it is added seasonally to some butters, but I don't know when that is. Is it safe as an additive? The problem I have is that I usually don't react immediately to the glutamates, but seem to accumulate them overtime if they are in small amounts. Then when I get a large dose (usualy hidden), I have a severe reaction. So it is hard for me to know what to eliminate.
Deb A.
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2000 - 9:51 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Annatto is a natural coloring derived from the annatto bean. We have had reports that people are sensitive to it. That may indicate that in processing the bean, free glutamic acid has been created. The only way you can be sure that it bothers you, is by trial, I'm afraid. It is usually added to butter in the winter, I have been told, because when cows have fresh grass to graze on, the butter is naturally more yellow.
Gerry Bush
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2000 - 7:35 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anon- I react to annatto. They put it in butter to color it! Do we need it in our butter? No! It's just another chemical added to our food supply because some chemical company paid a food scientist to come up with a way to use it. When I was a research chemist some years ago, our job was to find uses for the by-products of our main production product. If we were a paper producer....we had to develop viable products from the nasty, smelly slag by-product. Same thing for the paint company I worked for.

Because annatto is processed it likely has some free glutamate in it. My advice is to avoid annatto.

Remember how we all have concluded that as we continue to ingest small amounts of free glutamate they begin to accumulate in our bodies, setting us up for the big MSG reaction.
Anonymous
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 6:30 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To Gerry:

Annatto is not a chemical, it is a natural colorant from the annatto bean. It is of red color. It is used to color food instead of using artificial colorants or Accent(w/msg).
I am very sensitive to MSG and I do not react to annato, neither other MSG sensitive people I know. Maybe there is another chemical in the product you ate that you reacted to and thought it was the annatto, maybe you are allergic to annatto, but I doubt it can produce any MSG.
Deb A.
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 9:08 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When a high protein substance, such as beans, is treated with heat, enzymes, acids, or alkalies, there is always a good probablitity that free glutamic acid, the harmful component of MSG, can be created, if natural glutamate was present in the substance to begin with. That's why it's present in hydrolyzed products such as gelatin(bones) and carageenan(seaweed). Since the government has not done adequate testing on glutamate, we have only reports from others and our own personal experiences with a substance to go on. Some of these reactions may be food allergies, but some are reactions to a heightened sensitivity to free glutamic acid. Some people can be sent to a hospital with the most minute ingestion of free glutamic acid. Look at what can happen to a person who has a heightened sensitivity or allergy to peanuts when he or she ingests miniscule amounts. We do need more tests!
Carol H
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 1:57 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Be aware also that all kinds of beans are often a source of plain old allergens for some food-allergic persons.
M-Y
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 2:28 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use Organic Valley milk and I wrote to them
asking about unsalted butter. Here is the information that I received.
============
Marcia - Our cheese and butter cultures are microbial enzymes, grown in a laboratory on either seaweed
or milk protein base, some of which may be produced by controlled fermentation. Our yogurt is
produced with the same type of cultures. All genetically modified organisms are prohibited from use in
our certified organic products.

Because of the cultures in the above butter, it is recommended that it be kept refrigerated unles in use.
Our salted butter on the other hand, can be left out for a few hours.

Our salted butter is churned from our organic sweet cream and a little salt. There are not any natural
cultures added here.

Both butter boxes clearly state the ingredients and method of processing.

Thanks for your interest in Organic Valley

Jennifer Banowetz
Gerry Bush
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 6:22 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

M-Y, thanks for the post...but I will never eat anything from Organic Valley again. I have been "bitten" too many times. I don't trust their milk, butter and yogurt, all of which I have tried on numerous occasions. Some times I reacted, others not. Since Organic Valley is a cooperative of many dairies, I don't believe that they can maintain the honesty of all of their farmers to adhere to either the No MSG standards or the NO rBST growth hormone standards that they purport.
Gerry Bush
Posted on Friday, December 01, 2000 - 6:24 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Annatto still gives me an MSG reaction....... I am sure of that and I personally avoid it.
M-Y
Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 2:05 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gerry,
I've never had any adverse reactions to Organic Valley Products. When I used another brand of unsalted butter I reacted. I learned to stay away from all unsalted butters. Thanks for the warning.
M-Y
Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2000 - 2:38 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Correction....I've not tried all of Organic Valley products. I've had whole milk and salted butter.
I didn't want to lead anyone astray.
Hoteru
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 12:21 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greetings. On 11/15 I posted that I had written to Hain about the Health Valley Soups ingredients.
The chicken and beef broth in cartons labeled no msg on the front have been safe for me in the past. I noticed the new cartons have no msg on the front and natural flavor or natural flavorings as the last ingredient.
I emailed Hain asking what was in the natural flavor. I emailed them again this morning as it is nine days without a reply.
Deb A.
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 12:28 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the update, Hoteru. Please keep us posted.
MEMorrisNJ
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 5:22 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have only seen Organic Valley milk that is Ultrapasteurized -- I think this can be a problem for some people. Besides, there is something odd to me about Ultrapasteurized milk that is supposedly OK for almost 30 days!)
MEMorrisNJ
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 6:19 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I saw Eli's Tuscan Round bread in our local health food store. The ingredients listed were: Hi-gluten flour, water, sponge, yeast and salt. Can anyone tell me what sponge is? Thanks!
Deb S
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2000 - 7:30 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have been seeing both Organic Valley pasteurized and ultra-pasteurized milk, and have purchased the regular pasteurized. But I am becoming suspicious about whether there is really a difference, because the last half-gallon I bought says 11/28 on it, and it is still good (not sour) as of today, 12/4. I cannot say that I am symptom-free... Could it be ultra-pasteurized milk labeled as pasteurized? I would buy a different brand of organic milk if I could find it. Guess I'll have to go across town and get some at Trader Joes.

I think that in breadmaking, "making a sponge" is mixing together water, flour, sugar and yeast in a bowl (not too stiff) and then letting that raise for awhile until it's nice and bubbly, and then stirring it down and adding more flour and then kneading as usual. I believe the purpose of this step to develop the gluten in the flour. Now, if that mixture is left to sit overnight or longer, it becomes sourdough starter. Because they list it as a separate "ingredient," I wonder if it is a form of sourdough starter. If sourdough bothers you, as it does me, proceed with caution.
MEMorrisNJ
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2000 - 4:32 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Deb S. I too have been wondering about the milk that appears to last longer although it is not marked as ultrapasteurized. Re the bread, My husband said it tasted like a sourdough.
Hoteru
Posted on Friday, December 08, 2000 - 9:51 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greetings.
I emailed Hain asking exactly what was in their Health Valley chicken and beef broth "natural flavor" as they state "no msg" on the front of the container.
Their response is below my comments.
I'm still not sure I have confidence that I can eat this without problems, although I ate the same
soup in the past many times without problems before this new "natural flavors" was added. Could "mixed spices" with the direct denial of msg contain the usual list of sickeners? I've been too sick too many times falling for sneaky coverup tricks to trust much of anything I haven't made myself.
After reading their response would anyone care to comment?
"Thank you for your interest in our products. We strive to keep a high
quality consistent product and appreciate your
patronage.
None of our products have any MSG or Preservatives added to them. We do not
give out what the natural flavors are
because that is proprietary information. Our natural flavors consist of
mixed spices. Should you have any further
questions, please feel free to contact me directly at 626-385-0549 M-F 8-4
PST.

Again, thank you for your continual support of The Hain Celestial Group
products.

Margaret Enriquez
Consumer Response Representative"
Hoteru
Posted on Friday, December 08, 2000 - 9:59 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greetings again. On a different subject, what is "fruitrim fat replacer"? I have seen it listed in the ingredients of some scones at Whole Foods. As a hypoglycemic I know I have no business at the bakery counter pressing my nose against the glass and drooling while I read the ingredients and have fond memories of the "old days", but it still has a good strong grip on me at times:)
Tom Fernstrom
Posted on Friday, December 08, 2000 - 1:56 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear Hoteru,

I have had similar e-mail correspondence with Lawry's as you did with Health Valley and they give the same lame excuse - see below:

Tom

PS They never responded when I asked if there flavors supplier would validate that the natural flavors did not include anything that might create free glutamate in the process of creating the natural flavors -- they probably thought I was a fanatic kook. And Carol will tell you that the mere fact that they are linked to Lipton is a sure sign of danger.

*************
Dear Lawry's,

I suffer severe reactions to MSG that include rapid & irregular heartbeats. I have used your product labeled as "contains NO MSG" and have never had a problem until recently purchasing a new supply. I have used this new supply twice and have had reactions twice. Though your newer product still states "contains NO MSG" it also lists among the ingredients "natural flavors" (see below). I don't recall this being listed on the older container of your product and thus would question what ingredient "natural flavor" would be in reference to.

On websites at: www.NOMSG.com and http://www.truthinlabeling.org there is reference to the labeling of products as containing "natural flavors" to contain ingredients whose byproducts contain MSG.

I would really appreciate knowing what ingredient "natural flavors" refers to in your newly formulated product. Otherwise I will have to submit your product to the "NOMSG" list of products to avoid.

Sincerely,

Tom Fernstrom

CONTAINS: SALT, SUGAR, SPICES, INCLUDING PAPRIKA AND TURMERIC, ONION, CORNSTARCH, GARLIC, TRICALCIUM PHOSPHATE (PREVENTS CAKING), PAPRIKA OLEORESIN (FOR COLOR) AND NATURAL FLAVOR.
****************
Subj: RE: 7572780A Lawry's Contact Form
Date: 5/16/2000 12:00:39 PM Central Daylight Time
From: Erika.E.Kraft@unilever.com (Erika Kraft)
To: Tfernstrom@aol.com (Tfernstrom@aol.com)

Hi,

Thanks so much for writing!

We appreciate your interest in our company and its products.

When MSG is included in ANY our products, it is clearly and always listed in the ingredients as Monosodium Glutamate, the full name for this commonly known abbreviation. Lawry's does not hide MSG under the natural ingredients.

The unique flavors are created for Lipton/Lawry's are by our flavor suppliers, and we purchase the flavors as a single component.
Since the formula of the flavor is proprietary to the flavor supplier, we do not have a list of the flavoring ingredients.

We hope this information is of help to you.

Your friends at Lawry's.
Carol H
Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 1:04 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Erika is right. A lot of these food companies just buy barrels of weird chemicals from other companies, mix them together, package them and sell them as a "value-subtracted", Excuse me, I meant "value-added" product. The chemists at the ingredient companies bake these weird chemicals into cakes and whatnot and feed them to food scientists from companies like Lipton at industry trade shows. Food scientists are basically glorified home-ec majors who play in a big kitchens or tiny mock factories with samples given to them by these ingredient suppliers. At companies like Lipton, the thought that you are what you eat doesn't enter their silly little heads.
jj
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 6:06 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have very good luck with Cabot Farms butter and white cheeses. This is a company in Vermont and I buy it in Wal-Mart in Arkansas.
jj
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 6:08 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Forgot to say that it is cream and salt only no annatto.
Hoteru
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2000 - 11:55 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Holiday greetings.
Does anyone have information on these ingredients, fruitrim fat reducer, orange flavado, lemon flavado, levain (a form of levening for bread?). Yes, I have been hanging around Whole Foods bakery display cases again.
Thanks again to one and all for your questions, (so many things I needed to know that had never occurred to me) information and general support through the last year. It is so much easier going through the holidays eating and drinking only what is safe for me when I know others will be doing the same.
Ruth
Posted on Sunday, December 24, 2000 - 3:31 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hoteru,
Sorry, I have no idea what all those ingredients are, but no way would I trust them to be safe.
I have checked out all of the breads at my Whole Foods fresh bakery, and there isn't a single one
that is made with safe flour (organic, no barley
malt). I have been making my own bread for years
in a bread machine, and I just recently switched to the bulk organic flour at Whole Foods, the one that has no malted barley added. I have requested that the bakery make a bread without malted barley, for people who are sensitive to it, but so far, no such luck. Watch out for the flour!
Carol H
Posted on Monday, December 25, 2000 - 6:11 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hoteru, I suspect that fruitrim is probably safe. It is carbohydrate based, not protein-based like MSG. If it is what I think it is, it is probably the safest fat replacer/reducer. Although, I tend to still like the real thing myself. I'll check on those other ingredients too.
Gerry Bush
Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 7:29 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hoteru- I think flavado is Spanish for flavor. If this is so, then these might just be simple orange and lemon extracts and safe for us.
Any one out there with some Spanish to help us?
Frank
Posted on Wednesday, December 27, 2000 - 5:44 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

flavor in spanish is " sabor "

I think they are using those names to confuse people, since they know people are learning to read the ingredients list now.
Deb
Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2000 - 1:33 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi everyone. I agree 100% with Hoteru that having this support group makes the MSG struggle much easier to live with. Sorry I haven't been posting here for a few days. My house full of family and grandchildren took all my attention (and energy)!
I'd like to make a comment about lemon and orange extracts. According to some of the food additive books I have, sulfites are sometimes added to them as preservatives, and a lot of us are sulfite sensitive. MSG is also added to some flavorings to enhance the flavor already isolated.
jill s
Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 6:47 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

thank you so much for enlightening me about butter. I had not thought to check the label recently, and had a bad reaction recently racking my brain as to where I got the MSG. Now I know it was from the butter, which I looked at and it had "natural Flavoring" on the label! Thank you so much!
Roy Piwovar
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 4:35 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jill S,

It seems to me that salted butter is less likely to have "natural flavoring" added than unsalted butter, which manufacturers seem to think needs a little "help".
Noella Hunter
Posted on Monday, February 19, 2001 - 2:09 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have been using organic extra virgin olive oil as a spread for my bread, crackers, etc. Can't use dairy products. I happened across a new product in the health food store called: Earth Balance. It is a Natural buttery spread that is certified non-GMO, made of 100% expeller-pressed oils. 100% vegan and non-hydrogenated. No preservatives, trans fat and lactose free. For cooking, baking, and spreading. However, I am suspicious that it might just look too good to be true. Here is the list of incredients on the carton: Expeller-pressed natural oil blend (soy, palm, canola and olive), filtered water, pure salt, natural flavour (derived from grains), soy lecithin, lactic acid (non-dairy, derived from sugar beets), vitamin A palmitate and beta-carotene colour. Any comments...particulary in regards to the natural flavour (grain derived), and the lactic acid (derived from sugar beets)? Thanks in advance for any help on this.
Carol H
Posted on Monday, February 19, 2001 - 5:45 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Noella,
Lactic acid - derived from sugar beets. MSG is often obtained from the processing of sugar beets. I'd also be suspicious of the natural flavor too. Your instincts are right on.
Ruth
Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 9:19 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do we need to be suspicious of soy? I think I am sensitive to it. Is MSG made from soy? I also have sensitivities to sulfites, tyramine, and am hypothyroid. Is soy a problem for any of these conditions?
Thanks.
Carol H
Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 3:13 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ruth,

Soy contains phytic acid which can bind with minerals, magnesium included. This is probably not a good thing for MSG sensitive individuals. Also, allergies seem to show up more often in MSG sensitive individuals than in the general population. Soy is in the top five food allergies. It is high in protein, but because it is plant based, it contains absolutely no taurine. There are other reasons to avoid it, too. Soy is high in estrogen mimics which can derail development in children. Children, especially boys, don't need additional sources of environmental estrogens. Also, some research suggests that brain cells age faster from a soy diet. I don't recommend eating soy.
Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 3:25 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For Carol H: What are the other four top food allergens (you said soy was one of the top five)?I know that I am sensitive to corn, and I was curious what the other top food allergens are.
Carol H
Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 3:54 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anonymous,
Type 1 food allergies - Top Ten

nuts - 43%
eggs - 21%
milk - 18%
soy - 9%
wheat
peanuts
chicken
fish
shellfish
mollusks

Corn isn't in the top ten, but corn is a common allergy. The top ten foods are all protein-rich in general, and not vegetables. What I find interesting is that in the general adult population only 2% have food allergies, and multiple food allergies are the exception, not the rule. I am allergic to three on the top ten - milk, soy, and chicken. My boyfriend is MSG sensitive, and has multiple food allergies to coconut, shrimp, and oysters. And I bet several of you folks have multiple food allergies too.
Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 4:09 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Carol for such a quick reply!! I find it fascinating that numerous people on the corn allergy discussion board have the same identical symptoms as the msg sufferers.
Deb A.
Posted on Tuesday, February 20, 2001 - 7:28 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Soy and corn each contain a substantial amount of natural glutamate. The more they are processed with the application of heat, water, and/or chemicals, the more the bound glutamate is broken down into free glutamate (the form found in MSG). Lecithin from soy, and citric acid from corn and a huge number of by-products in between, will give MSG sensitive people problems.
Carol H
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2001 - 6:40 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anonymous, see my posting from yesterday regarding the disease pellagra. It has to do with overconsumption of corn products and how the resulting niacin deficency can interfere with glucose metabolism - resulting in similar symptoms of MSG reaction. Maybe this has a lot to do with the glucose to energy pathway which would explain also how CoQ10 is involved.
Christine K.P.S.
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2001 - 2:00 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was wondering whether or not oat bran could be an issue? I find it in Barabra's Breakfast O's. The label reads: Whole oat flour, brown rice flour, pineapple concentrate, pear juice concentrate, oat bran, peach juice conentrate, sea salt. I know that from Deb A's list that wheat, rice, or oat protein could pose a problem. I just don't know if that includes the bran. I give these to my daughter inside of actual Cheerios which have BAD stuff in 'em. Yikes!
Deb A.
Posted on Monday, April 09, 2001 - 10:34 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know how much protein is in bran, but I suspect it is not much compared to other parts of the grain. Plus it acts as good roughage. I do worry about some fruit juice concentrates that may have sulfites added.
Christine K.P.S.
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 9:32 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Deb,
Thanks for your response. I, too, was wondering about the fruit juice concentrates. I noticed that none of it was organic after I did my posting. My daughter has been a little crankier than ususal. Don't know if it's the O's cereal or general growing pains like teething or wanting to crawl and have things when she wants them. So, even though she likes the O's and enjoys chewing them, I guess I may have to try not giving them to her and see what comes of it. When at Whole Foods last evening, my husband and I couldn't find any O's, oat, kamust, or otherwise, that didn't have suspicious ingredients. I wish I knew how to make them for her out of organic grains/flour. Do you or anyone have any suggestions. They are perfect for her to pick up and crunch. I'd much appreciate it.
Christine K.P.S.
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 10:21 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Am I correct in assuming that organic generally should be o.k.? I know that with the new 100% organic vs. 95% organic and so on with new labeling will be important. I just bought organic frozen o.j. concentrate to use in your "Punch for a Crowd" recipe.
Deb A.
Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2001 - 11:47 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Christine, I am sure that there are other dry crunchy cereals available that do not contain inorganic fruit concentrates. Puffins come to mind, and Rice Crunchums. These are found in health food sections of grocery stores, Fred Meyers, and some health food stores. It's a pain to have to read labels, but it's worth it.
Evelyn H.
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 9:39 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Christine--We have found Gorilla cereal--it's organic corn puffs, which may not work for all depending on how you react to corn. They're like Kix without all of the junk. We also found some organic corn flakes from Canada. Puffins might also work for the little one to pick up. They do have added vitamins, but my son didn't seem to react when he ate them.
Evelyn H.
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 9:41 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a question. I bought some farina last time I was at the health food store. Unfortunately it was bulk and didn't come with cooking instructions. Does anyone know how much farina and water I'll need to cook it and how long it should cook. I'm clueless, but my son loves Malt-O-Meal, which is full of junk, so I thought I'd give this a try.
Deb A.
Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2001 - 10:36 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Evelyn, I rarely measure when it comes to cooked cereals, but if you start with 1 cup of farina and 2 to 2 1/2 cups of water and a pinch of salt, I think you should be alright. I keep stirring it and if it seems to be getting too thick, I add more water. When it does come to a boil, turn down the heat and it only takes a couple minutes to thicken up. I like it a bit runny so that I don't have to add a lot of organic milk or rice milk. I even eat it plain with sugar or honey if it's not too thick. Also, I'll sometimes break and egg or 2 in a bowl and beat. While whisking, I pour in some of the hot cooked cereal, then pour that back into the pot and simmer another minute. With sweetener, it's like a pudding. I have also added a heaping t. of cocoa to just plain farina and water before cooking it, in the pot, and it's tasty. If you make farina thick, you can pour leftovers in a buttered pan and let set till cold in the fridge. Next day, slice, as you would cooked cornmeal and fry with eggs. Top with maple syrup or honey, and butter (opt.), if you do alright with that. It isn't as firm as cornmeal, but it is tasty.
Evelyn H.
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2001 - 10:39 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Deb. You have such great ideas. It's so nice to be settled into our house and have a stove again--and your cookbook!
Hoteru
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2001 - 12:25 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Like Gerry Bush I read the board every day but don't say much. I am here and so grateful to learn from everyone's experience and knowledge.
Thought you would like to know about this "wonderful new ingredient" I saw at the health food store.
In the section for products usually used by body builders there was an amazing product, Mega Mass 2000, from the company of the famous body builder, Joe Weidner. On the front of the very large white package, taking up most of the space, it proclaims in giant red letters that it has l-glutamate, and implies that is just what you need for good health and to bulk up and look just like Joe.
How disgusting, to sell this trash to the innocent, implying it is a health food that is good for them! No doubt it will bulk them up as apparently one of its effects to to make lab mice obese. How nice they will look as they stagger around with vomiting, diarrhea, heart palpitations, asthma attacks or however else it affects them. Shame on them, but they feel no shame!
Gerry Bush
Posted on Friday, April 13, 2001 - 11:02 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes Hoteru, you are so right! My 23 year old nephew bought exactly that stuff in a GIANT jar to use in combination with his weight lifting workout. Well, he had such bad headaches he couldn't function. I didn't know that he had bought it. When I saw it in his closet and read the ingredients I was aghast and told him to stop. Of course the severe headaches then stopped. It is criminal how some of these products are marketed to us as health promoting.
Christine K.P.S.
Posted on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 11:34 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dear Deb A. and Evelyn H.,
I owe you both long overdue thank you's for your cereal suggestions for my daughter. She's now enjoying plain old organic puffed rice and kamut so far. At first she didn't care for them much like she did those Barbara's Breakfast O's with the fruit juice. But now, she gobbles up the plain puffed cereals. She also has taken over my brown/white rice organic crackers. She has a ball with these, enjoys tapping them together, etc. and cruching. Oh what a wonderful crucnch they make. Thanks again.
Evelyn H.
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2001 - 10:53 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Deb A., Thanks for the farina cooking instructions. I made it this weekend. My husband liked it better than Malt-o-Meal hot cereal. My son gave it a lukewarm reception, but he doesn't like new things. Next time I make it, he'll love it, I'm sure.
Deb A.
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2001 - 3:40 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's great that your husband liked the farina. Malt-o-meal is a no- no, if it contains malt, which makes sense that it does with that name??? :) Kids are funny. Guess we all get into a rut when it comes to certain likes and dislikes. But you're so right to keep offering it. Eventually, they develop new tastes. It's amazing how we all have had to change our ideas about lots of foods we used to eat, and now it feels normal.
Marcia
Posted on Monday, May 07, 2001 - 11:19 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does anyone know why they are putting barley malt in flour now? So far I can't find an acceptable flour.
DJ
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2001 - 1:03 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Marcia,

Try Hodgson Mills www.hodgsonmill.com

Have used their flour in the past, and unless they have changed things (Auxigro) all of their products are the best....

DJ
Ruth
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2001 - 5:47 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Marcia,
I haven't found a single acceptable white flour, so have switched to white spelt. It is related to wheat and delicious in a bread machine or an apple pie crust. I make French toast using it every morning. It has nothing added. It's pretty expensive ($2.19 lb.), and I've only seen it in bulk. My Whole Foods market does not have it pre-packaged. Debby A. grinds her own flour. I think it's the only way to get a "whitish" bread flour without barley malt.
Deb A.
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2001 - 7:46 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Malted barley flour is sweet. The grain is sprouted and dried before it is ground, thus creating more free glutamate. It masks any bitter flour flavors, which tend to form with longer shelf life. In home ec. classes MANY years ago, we were told the barley flour is there to give more protein to the wheat flour, so that bread rises better...natural dough conditioner and flavor enhancer. I grind hard white wheat, which is pale tan, and bakes up much like processed white four. But recently, I was able to find it at the Super Walmart already ground under the name of Wheat Montana Prairie Gold Flour.."hard white spring wheat". It is certified chemical free. It comes in plastic 10 lbs bags for $4.25. Great price. I like to keep it in the freezer. I also found there, a white flour that did not contain malted barley, but it was bleached. (chemicals). But, once in a while, it might be nice to use it for something, such as mixed with whole wheat for a more traditional french bread, or as a thickener in cooking. I think it's been milled in Texas by a Mexican/American family for many years. It's preferred for baking tortillas. I'm not sure of the name, but White Doves, or something like that comes to mind.
Evelyn H.
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2001 - 9:40 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Speaking of tortillas--does anyone have a recipe for flour tortillas or know of a store-bought brand that's safe? My son won't eat corn tortillas, and I won't buy the flour tortillas I've seen so far. Help!
Ruth
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2001 - 1:32 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Deb A.,
What is Super Walmart-is it a grocery store? I'd like to try the flour but our Walmarts don't have grocery stores. My Walmart does carry a few isles of food items. It's kind of far away, but it might be worth a try. The flour's not enriched?
Deb A.
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2001 - 9:29 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The white flour is enriched, but I can do alright with a small amount now and then. Ruth, the Super Walmart's have grocery stores, too.

My favorite recipe for flour tortillas is the big batch one on page 102 of our book. I roll into balls, freeze on a large cookie sheet, and then place in ziplock freezer bags. Just take out as many as you want to defrost and use.
Flour Tortillas I
9 cups flour- can be whole wheat or hard white whole wheat, or soft whole wheat flour
1 1/2 t. salt
2 t. baking powder
2/3 c. oil
3 to 3 1/2 c. warm water
Mix all dry ingredients. Pour warm water and oil over ingredients and mix with hands. Cut off small portions and roll into 6" to 7" circles about 1/8" thick. You can make them as thick as you like, or as large as you prefer. Cook on hot griddle or pan(no oil) turning until lightly brown. They will bubble a bit. Use in your recipe, or stack between wax paper and freeze in ziplock freezer bags for later use. (or freeze as uncooked balls, as I do..they defrost in a few seconds in the microwave if rushed). I ususally get anywhere from 24 to 40 balls, depending on the size of the tortilla I want. You can make crackers out of this recipe by adding 2 T. of sugar and 1/3 c. sesame seeds to the flour mixture. Roll into very thin rectangles to fit cookie sheets. Place on cookie sheets and cut into squares with a pizza cutter. Bake at 350 degrees 7 to 8 min. or till crisp. You can turn the oven off and let them dry and crisp up even more. They will break apart easily in the pan. They also crispen as they cool. I sprinkle a little salt over them before I put them on the sheets and roll the salt in with the rolling pin.
I suggest if you want to just use the recipe for crackers, that you halve or even third the recipe. It makes a LOT of crackers.
Evelyn H.
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2001 - 9:46 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Deb. Should have checked the cookbook before I posted. By the way, your brownie recipe is wonderful--they've become a family favorite.
Deb A.
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2001 - 4:02 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Glad to hear it! They're one of ours, too....and the magic chocolate cake. I make the low sugar, low fat one often for snacking.
Melissa
Posted on Monday, July 09, 2001 - 9:43 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I may be wrong, but Hodgeson Mill has flour that I use all the time. I believe it is safe, but I don't use a ton of flour, and only make baked goods on occasion, and I must admit I have a heck of a time baking because I am constantly learning how many items I thought were safe and really are not. This flour has no preservatives like BHT etc, and it only has one ingredient, unbleached and unenriched wheat flour. I don't have my package to check the label. But that is why I always buy it, and it is rather expensive. It's not organic, but I believe they also have organic. Another good brand for grains, flours and cereals that I have good luck with is Arrowhead Mills organic products. We eat the 4 Grain plus Flax seed cereal almost daily, it's very good, and tastes a bit the way cream of wheat does (only lots more texture and no additives at all.)
If anyone out there knows differently about Hodgeson Mill, please post, but we have had good luck with it also.
Evelyn H.
Posted on Monday, July 09, 2001 - 11:18 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Melissa--We buy Hodgeson Mills sweetened oat flakes. My husband loves them. We also tried their sweetened shredded wheat, which was very good. I don't think I've used their flour, however. We buy ours in bulk from the health food store. It's just unbleached wheat flour.
Evelyn H.
Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2001 - 7:11 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Correction on my last post. It's Arrowhead Mills sweetened rice flakes and shredded wheat. I got my mills mixed up. Sorry for any confusion.
clarissa
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 - 2:21 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hi everyone bought organic valley butter unsalted cultured also salted kind too. which is better for you to use ?ingredients are salted one haspasterized organic sweet cream salt without flowing agents .unsalted has past.org. sweet cream and microbial culture ` .is buttermilk byproduct the same as sweet cream/ cause it is not in the ingred.yet it states it has it in the label inside.is microbial safe or is it a chemical ? clarissa
Lbray
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 1:28 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

MSG can be produced from wheat, corn or soy......and there's nothing to tell you which one. Also, if seaweed is used to grow a bacterial culture, couldn't that leave a trace o glutamic acid in the finished product?if you are allergic to soy, don't use anything with annato color in it, as the achiote seeds may be soaked in soy oil to make the color.
Lori
shirley
Posted on Monday, August 27, 2001 - 12:20 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wouldnt have anything with flowing agents. It has msg, glutamate.
Deb A.
Posted on Monday, August 27, 2001 - 9:11 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've been told the salted Organic Valley butter is a better choice.
Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 7:56 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Organic Horizon butter, both salted and unsalted,
has natural flavors. Butter is butter. Just leave it alone!
shirley
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 8:01 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I get the one that isnt organic with natural flavorings.
Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 8:30 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, I assumed the Horizon brand was all organic. Anyway, there is no good reason to add flavorings to butter. I sometimes have to go to several stores, but I can still find butter with just cream and salt, thank goodness. The butter I have right now is Cabot, from Vermont.
Laurie M
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 8:54 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Horizon organic sweet cream butter Salted:
Ingredients certified organic sweet cream, salt.

That is right off of my package.
shirley
Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2001 - 1:57 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ok organic without salt doesnt mean it is all organic. It just means that the animal wasnt given any shots?

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