|Posted on Friday, October 01, 2010 - 5:17 pm: || |
I just made the MSG connection about a month ago. Iíve always had weird problems with food that others donít seem to have, and have even been told by friends that my reactions were probably due to MSG on two separate incidences. Once was when I was 20 and living in Germany. I would eat a veggie burger at McDonaldís (I LOVED that they had those!) and my nose would start to run. My friend said, ďThatís all that MSG in that burger!Ē Five years later, after eating some hibachi vegetables from a restaurant that sprinkles MSG out of the jar onto their food, I had this crazy feeling that something horrible was going to happen that I couldnít shake. My friend who had bought me the food said, ďOh, itís probably all that MSG.Ē Other than that, I didnít have enough obvious symptoms to make me worry too much. However, Iíve always suspected that food has been poisoning me. I could never pinpoint it, but Iíd often call different foods ďpoisonĒ to which my friends and family would laugh, because they thought I was just being silly.
Let me back up to say that when I was about 10 years old, I started breaking out in hives randomly, fairly often. Nothing in my diet had changed, and we were not a family to go out to eat a lot. My mom cooked pretty healthy meals every night and packed our school lunches. So I was not exposed to very much fast food, candy, or sodas. Those were all special once-in-a-while treats for my family. The doctor never really tried to figure out what was causing them, as nothing had changed it didnít seem to be a food allergy. They attributed it to stress. Also that year I got what the doctor called ďBronchial Spasms,Ē where I would cough and cough for no apparent reason. I was prescribed an inhaler. After about a year, the hives stopped and I no longer needed the inhaler, although I still have mild coughing fits if I laugh very hard.
In high school I started getting heartburn every day. I was chewing a LOT of sugar-free gum, about one stick every time I changed classes. My mother read something one day that Aspartame may cause heartburn, so I stopped chewing gum. The heartburn pretty much stopped.
When I went to college I decided to go vegan, because it sounded so much healthier and better for the environment. I was vegan for about 4 years before I added dairy back into my diet, due to the fact I do not really like to cook and I eat out a lot. I cannot, however, tolerate eggs anymore. They hurt my stomach very badly, and Iíve lost my taste for them. Any incidents where Iíve accidentally ingested meat now cause me severe nausea. Anyways, about age 22-23 I started getting a tummy ache from most corn syrup products. Gatorade hurt my stomach, so does Sprite (itís the WORST) and candy with corn syrup. They all give me heartburn. So does hydrogenated oil. Iíve known for years that corn syrup, hydrogenated oil, and artificial sweeteners were all poison. My stomach told me.
As sensitive as my digestive system seems to be, Iím the kind of person who rarely gets sick. Donít get me wrong, I get a good cold every couple of years or soÖbut for example, as a freshman in college EVERYONE in my dorm (including my roommate) got a very bad flu. My roommate especially was VERY ill. I never caught it. And I am NOT a germ-a-phobe at all, probably because I donít feel like I need to be. Also last year when I was student teaching at an elementary school, I think I was the only one of my fellow classmates who did not catch some sort of virus. And trust me, you are pretty much guaranteed to get sick when you first start teaching. Lots of little germy kids. I thought it was interesting when I read on one of these MSG-info sites that some hypothesize that a person sensitive to toxins often has a hyperactive immune system. Made a LOT of sense in my case.
When I watched the archived videos of the 60 Minutes reports on MSG and heard the man say, ďMSG, a form of POISON, is in almost everything we eat,Ē I started to cry. I KNEW I was being poisoned. I knew we were ALL just being poisoned and they just donít know it, because they donít feel it like I do. Iím like the frog in a polluted pondÖthe first to die when something isnít right in the environment. YetÖI donít get sick when others do. I was always confused until I read about MSG sensitivity.
This past year (age 29, now 30) has been pretty bad. I got put on high blood pressure medication, because my blood pressure would NOT go down even after eliminating my daily Sudafed and Ritalin, which Iíve been taking since my last year in college. Quite often, after eating a meal, I have been getting a very rapid heartbeat and lie on the floor to try and relax, which never helps. It would subside after about a half an hour to an hour. I tend to get addicted to specific foods and eat the same food over and over again for a year or more. One year it was Hibachi Factory, one year it was Roly Poly, and for the past 3 years itís been Moeís burritos. My diet is not that healthy, although healthier than many peopleís!
So, on to the discovery and finally, the recovery (still working on that part). A few months ago I had ACTUALLY cooked something for myself, and it was hominy. The recipe is hominy, jack cheese, a can of diced green chiles, salt, and pepper. Immediately after eating it I got a very rapid heartbeat along with anxiety, and it felt very close to being a full-blown panic attack. I knew right then and there it was the food. But what? I had cooked it myself, and only a few ingredients! I suspected GMO corn but not MSG. I thought also it might be the amount of carbs. A few weeks later, I went to Smoothie King and got a big berry flavored smoothie. It had whey/soy protein powder. I was very panicky and freaked out, and very jittery that day for several hours. I figured I had had too much sugar. Then about a month ago I got home from a beach trip with my family (where I was constantly de-snotting my cousinís babyís face and never got sick, but her poor mom did) and I pulled out some Quorn fake chicken nuggets from the freezer and ate them. I was SEVERELY depressed ALL day. I pulled out the box and read all the ingredients, looking for MSG. It of course didnít say it anywhere on the box. Out of curiosity, I decided to look up ďMSG SensitivityĒ to see what I could learn anyways. OH MY GOD.
Autolyzed yeast extract! Soy protein powder! Whey protein powder! SOAKED CORN!!!! (Hominy) It all added up. The next day I changed my diet. I felt AMAZING for like 2 or 3 days. THEN started the detox, and for me, it was INTENSE. I thought I was doing something wrong until I stumbled upon the phrase ďdetox reactionĒ in a food additives book and looked it up. I was taken to a raw food diet webpage that explained it all to me (Iíve been eating a lot of raw, coincidentally) Do not underestimate the detox! I had diarrhea for 2 weeks, and felt VERY lethargic. My liver is having a field day dumping all those old toxins into my bloodstream and I can FEEL it! Last week it wasnít in my stomach so much, but in my head, my muscles, and even my bones! Iím very sore and it feels like growing pains I had as a kid. You tall people know exactly what Iím talking about. Itís not unbearable, but Iíve spent a LOT of time in bed, and luckily Iím not working so Iím able to just rest! Getting massages has helped, too.
Now Iím starting to really feel reactions when I eat something wrong. The other day I roasted a bunch of organic root vegetables for dinner (small russets, sweet potato, onion, garlic, and carrots) and was very dizzy/brain foggy that night and the following morning. Then I tried the ďEnrichedĒ Rice Dream instead of the plain. Brain fog/fatigue for several hours. The other day I ate a sandwich with some pesto on it (parmesan) and got a rapid heartbeat. Oops. Today Iím trying to just stick to brown rice. I think Iíve just been too adventurous too quickÖitís hard though. I tried some local organic jack cheese with the rice for dinner and got a little brain fog. Iím eating almost everything organic, and I donít eat meat or eggs so Iím trying to get my vitamin B-12 somehowÖcanít take vitamins! I took a Magnesium Citrate night before last and was VERY lethargic yesterday, could BARELY get out of bed. When I did, I looked at my face and it was GRAY. I looked like death!
Sorry for the ridiculously long story, Iíve been reading through the blogs every day and finally decided to postÖany tips or advice would be greatly appreciated! I bought your book and I love it, itís worth a thousand dollars. Iím mostly using the ďPure and Simple: Vegan, MSG-free and Gluten freeĒ Cookbook though, since I am happy being vegetarianÖTHANK YOU so much for everything. No one really believes me yet though. I will have to prove it by getting better, which hasnít really happened yetÖ
|Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2010 - 8:02 am: || |
I prefer local, natural to organic - that way I can question the producer. Organic food used to be sprayed with a high glutamate "natural" product. Now that Auxigro is not used here (but we can't be certain it isn't used on foreign produce), organic produce is fertilized with hydrolyzed fish protein and as you likely know from this site, hydrolysis frees glutamate. It took me over a month to begin reaping benefits from a clean diet. Additionally, I determined that the root cause of my problem is Taurine deficiency, though I am also sensitive to soy and I haven't found that to be related to the Taurine issue. From this website (and others) I have learned that a sulfa drug sensitivity translates into a sulfite sensitivity, which translates into a taurine deficiency which makes me less able to deal with glutamates. I don't know what other causes there are for sensitivity, other than overloading our systems. Another thing I learned here and have been using as a defense against accidental ingestion is ibuprofen. It is a glutamate blocker and I take it when I don't feel I can trust 100% that a food (usually in a restaurant)is free of excess glutamate. I have seen huge benefits since discovering msg issues and taurine deficiency. Search on my name to see - too many to type again. And you have to bewar of more than food - had a reaction last week from a facial treatment. The people who do this know nothing about glutamates in their products (hair dye was the worst of my problems before I knew the cause) and you are best to ask to read ingredients of anything you will put on your skin, as well as in your mouth. I have found transdermal infusion of MSG to be much more efficient than swallowing it - so it takes much less and I get more sick and more quickly than if I had eaten the product. I feel my theory was recently confirmed when I read an old article re-posted by Carolh - which talk about the intestines ability to process glutatmate.
Planting my fall garden today! Local and natural for sure
|Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2010 - 8:18 am: || |
FYI - I supplement Taurine, pure US made powder from nutribio.com. It has no known toxicity level, but has an Observable safe level of 500-3000mg daily. It has been a miracle cure for me, but if taurine deficiency is not your issue, it may not be the answer for you. Others take CoQ10, I have read research that it is not as beneficial as Taurine and it did not help me - but I attribute that to buying the gelcaps (another source of hidden msg). Until research proves it to be more beneficial than taurine, I won't be buying it. Eliminating msg and eating a healthy diet may be all you need to do. And finally, per msgtruth website (of Carolh) ammonia from cigarette smoke is processed into glutamate in your system, so if you are glutamate sensitive and a smoker, you will need to quit to see the improvement. But don't let others belief or unbelief in your discoveries concern you - if you are better and you know it, just accept that they may never believe it! Just to scare you further with the smoking thing: the taurine deficiency is genetic and a couple of months after I got sick (April of last year), my sister was diagnosed with Parkinson's (at the age of 48). I'm convinced this is due to glutamate sensitivity, and the impacts of diet and smoking. Keep at it, if this is the cause of your trouble, you will see improvement!
|Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2010 - 10:28 am: || |
"...Iíve known for years that (corn syrup, hydrogenated oil, and artificial sweeteners) were all poison. My stomach told me. ...
"... I KNEW I was being poisoned. I knew we were ALL just being poisoned and they just donít know it, because they donít feel it like I do. Iím like the frog in a polluted pondÖthe first to die when something isnít right in the environment. "...
wow, Annie, did you ever sum it up! i can relate to pretty much EVERYTHING you said... for me, some things are different, but SO MUCH the same.
i love your comment about the frogs... for years i have called it "canary in the coal mine syndrome", kinda the same thing ;) - so, welcome to the "Canary Club" ha ha ha- and aint it great?
at least it really IS great that you are actually finding out what your triggers are... it is a loooong, hard and often lonely road, but well worth your efforts so let me encourage you to keep on moving down the path... and you will find you have lots of excellent company on this board, so you will never need to feel like you are all alone. believe me, i have asked some crazy questions and done more than my share of complaining over the past months that ive been on here, and everyone is always so helpful and kind
so, please, ask away- and contribute all your insights and discoveries as well... this is a community of like-minded learners, and we all have so much we can share with one another!
Evelyn... a lot of what you experience also seems to click with me... i am now experimenting with the Taurine (Carlson's powder) and also suspecting problems with sulfur/sulfate/ite/ide/etc metabolism... altho i tend to think thats a relatively newish problem? or, maybe, it was always there in a masked state and is now visible becoz there is finally less glutamate for my system to contend with?
anyway, since i started supplementing with taurine, i do think i am less crashingly fatigued... i dont 'hit the wall' as early in the day as i had... it hasnt been a remarkable change so far but more of a slow improvement. but i will take any improvement over none!
was wondering, do you think there might be an actual relationship between sulfur issues and taurine imbalance?
also, ive been wondering about methionine? ...my husband's physician had him on that for awhile, something about sulfur issues- i wish i had paid closer attention at the time, but all this is chemistry that is new to me and still hard to understand... at the time we weren't sure what difference we were supposed to see in him, and the methionine supplements were spendy so eventually just let it slide...
has anyone had any experience with taking methionine, or know anything of what it is supposed to do?
|Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2010 - 10:45 am: || |
My (laymen's) understanding of the info I have read - and those with more knowledge, please pipe up! But - I understand a sensitivity to sulfa/sulfites to be evidence of a problem with sulphur metabolism, which results in less taurine being manufactured by the body. Taurine is used by the body to process glutamate (it acts as an inhibitory neurotransmitter - among many other things!) If you naturally lack sufficient taurine to process glutamate, the result is whatever symptoms you experience from excessive glutamate. As we get older we produce less taurine. I read, but have yet to confirm, that the body "prefers to ingest, rather than manufacture" Taurine. Annie being a vegetarian (and this just occurred to me) is probably ingesting little or no Taurine, as most sources are animal/meat protein.
|Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2010 - 1:44 pm: || |
Wow, thank you for your responses! I bet I do need Taurine, I'm going to try it ASAP!!! As far as all the ingredients and stuff, I have read everything I can get my hands on in the past month since I've figured this out. Thank GOODNESS I don't smoke. I actually tried to in my early 20's and my body always rejected it, and I never got addicted. Once I stopped I couldn't even stand to be near a cigarette. I also stopped drinking any alcohol earlier this year. I think I was drinking and popping pills (xanax, valium) to try and counteract the side effects the MSG was causing me. I have always had insomnia, even as a little girl. I think once I stopped trying to medicate my symptoms I was able to really notice what they were, and notice that it was from food.
The easy part is the label reading/ingredients names for me. If it's on a label, I can find it. Having gone vegan before I am no stranger to major diet changes/label reading. I also helped a friend of mine when she got diagnosed with Celiac's figure out what she could eat, because she never read labels and found it so daunting. But this has been the most difficult thing ever to figure out...mostly because it's sprayed on plain vegetables, and they fertilize with it. That's where the guessing game starts for me. Also just knowing which cheeses I can eat...they all say "enzymes" so that seems to be a guessing game too. I'm also wondering about my medications I'm on and how they may be hurting me. I'm going to try and stop taking as many as possible. Luckily I'm on MUCH fewer than I was prior to last spring! I only take birth control (Seasonique), Mirtazapine (antidepressant that puts me to sleep), Zyrtec, Lisinopril, and Nasacort. Any knowledge on the MSG status of any of those? I feel like at least the antidepressant and blood pressure meds are likely to counteract my MSG problems and maybe I'll be able to stop taking them once I get my diet straight. I would LOVE to stop taking pills.
|Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2010 - 2:13 pm: || |
That's also very interesting about MSG soaking into the skin! I've been getting massages at Aveda recently, and I noticed that the free body wash they gave me has some hydrolized protein in it. I read in another thread on this site that Tropical Solutions products are good, so I ordered some. I haven't been wearing any lipsticks or makeups, and I use Cetaphil products mostly for my face, but I know with the winter coming I'm going to want some lotion and chapstick type product soon! I just started brushing with plain baking soda 2 nights ago, and the only deoderant I ever use are those salt water spray ones from the natural food store. Lately I've been getting a pretty bad rash in my right armpit...toxins coming out maybe? Well I had to stop shaving them for now! I'm not putting anything on it.
So about the ibuprofen, is there a specific brand or generic that is better than others as far as fillers go?
I've been eating this way for over a month, and from what I've read, it can take longer than that to really feel better. I think it's interesting I haven't lost ANY weight, since my diet is MUCH improved...I guess that'll take a while. But what I'd really love is if I could just stop feeling so foggy and SO fatigued. It almost feels like everything I eat is giving me a reaction, although I'm eating everything organic and mostly brown rice, vegetables, beans, fruit, and nuts. Also some bread and pasta. And yes, I am reading ingredients! If it has more than like, 4 ingredients, I'm not eating it!
|Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2010 - 3:48 pm: || |
I have little experience with medicines - alleve and ibuprofen are the only thing I take, and not very often. Kristy and others know more about compounding pharmacies and ingredients. As for the taurine, most are made in china - only 2 in the US. Carlsons you can get at local vitamin/health shops, nutrabio.com you can order online. I don't eat any cheese. I try to avoid all processed foods. If you need fat, butter and olive oil are good. and you know that soy sauce is high in free glutamate, right?
|Posted on Saturday, October 02, 2010 - 5:10 pm: || |
Yes I'm not touching soy sauce with a 10 foot pole. The last 3 times I went to Pei Wei I left very dizzy with a numb tongue. That was extreme and also helped lead to the MSG discovery! Also I've cut out all fake meat products...they never seemed healthy to begin with, but I had no idea how bad most of them are. I ordered the taurine from nutrabio.com.
Today something interesting is happening in my body...when I read about detox symptoms it emphasized that you tend to experience symptoms in the backwards order of when you experienced them in your life. I started out with diarrhea every day, which has definitely been my most recent symptom. Then the muscle tightness and aches and pains, which started in my 20's (I just turned 30 this year). Today, my knee feels funny! It is feels JUST like when I was 13-14 and had knee problems and I haven't experienced this since then. Nothing I've done physically could have caused it to feel this way. It's not pain, it feels more like there's extra water in there or something. Hard to explain. If I break out in hives next, I'll KNOW this is detox! I haven't had hives since age 11! That would be amazing.
|Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2010 - 5:51 am: || |
Pasta has never agreed with me - makes me feel bloated, no clue why, but I am tolerating small portions on a new weight loss diet I just started. I have had a very hard time finding store-bought bread that did not have msg ingredients, there are only two brands - 1 trader joes that has no dough conditioner and 1 local store brand (Basha's - don't know who manufactures for them or if they actually make it) that is nearly as good. Thought about making my own pasta, but found it easier to not eat it. Am making some of my own bread, from recipes I found here - quick, yummy and you know what's in it! I've mentioned here before that I find Indian and greek food to be made with fresh natural ingredients and geneally msg free - though you have to make sure there is no soy sauce in the indian food, as some (especially noodle dishes) use it. Both have lots of yummy vegetarian dishes - but you are probably aware of that!
I had no sense of 'detoxing', I felt that as I built up the amount of taurine in my body, I got better and better. Taurine does not prevent me from reacting to my triggers, but it does allow me to recover much, much faster. I do increase my dosage when I have a reaction, to help with recovery. I figure whatever excess glutamate I have received has set me back on taurine reserves (taurine is stored in a number of tissues in the body, but if you get too, I read that it is simply excreted in your urine). By the way, the observable safe level is the only mention of dosing, other than as a medication for acute heart problems in other countries where they will use up to 40K/mg for congestive heart failure (on a short term basis). The study that suggested 500-3K mg was safe was refering to healthy people ingesting it in energy drinks. I started with 1K/mg daily and have experimented and found that it works best for me if I spread it out during the day, because my symptoms seem worse at night (though the jury is still out on whether that is just because I pay more attentin to my symptoms when I am not doing anything else). With the pure powder, 1/4t (the measure you receive with it) it 1k mg. Most capsules are 500mg. I now take it morning, afternoon and before bed, with a double dose at bedtime. Diet eliminated most of the post lunch sleepies, a dose of Taurine has eliminated it completely.
I will say Annie that we normally have a very distinctive set of symptoms that we experience, though I have found some variation based on the amount of msg I have gotten - ie. how sleepy or sore I will be (my symptoms are mainly muscular), though it seems that if I got a very large dose, I would get diarhea almost immediately. That doesn't happen anymore, since I know what the problem is. Before I knew msg was cause, I had stopped eating at Cracker Barrel because rushing to the bathroom was the inevidable outcome of every visit there. Anyway! The reason I am saying all this is because you may have more than one food additive/allergy issue and/or other problems altogether. So if this does not make you feel 100% better, then keep looking for other culprits. I find I feel best when I avoid sulfites, soy and msg. I'm totally convinced now that nearly all of our health problems and chronic disease are diet related, because I feel better than I have in many, many years now. But I also concede that this is not always the case and there may be other, unrelated causes for your health problems. ie. high blood pressure may bee msg related (I had intolerable anxiety at night before taurine - gone) but it could be something else.
So like I said - keep searching, this may not be the panacea that cures all your ills, but I sure hope it helps! Let us know how you do!
|Posted on Monday, October 04, 2010 - 8:55 am: || |
Annie, you mentioned taking magnesium citrate...please avoid citric acid in all forms...contains glutamate residues from the hydrolyzed corn it's made from. You're doing great and I sure can relate to your symptoms. You've built up not only glutamate in my system and cells over the years, but also some residues from the drugs you are taking. I know it is scary, but as you become better at avoiding hidden forms of glutamate and also avoiding apartame and l-cysteine, you will be more confident about weaning yourself off drugs, slowly. Many people report to me that they suspected that the drugs were making the problem even worse. Don't give up, and remember this is a year of learning and mistakes that we all have made. So happy you found our site.
|Posted on Monday, October 04, 2010 - 12:08 pm: || |
Thanks Deb! Yes I am avoiding citric acid, and I got rid of those magnesium citrate pills! I got the magnesium oratate powder from Beyond a Century today and just took some, since I've read others use that kind. It's funny that spinach and pumpkin seeds are both very high in magnesium, because over the years I have often had MAJOR cravings for both of those foods. I'll sometimes eat an entire bag of frozen spinach by itself, and I've always jumped at bread with pumpkin seeds on the crust.
I think it's amazing you figured all this out before the internet was available...thank goodness for the internet, that's all I have to say! I would have NEVER figured this out without it!
Deb, a question: Do you always immediately freeze leftovers? I've read a little where you've talked about that...the reason I ask is because I made a black bean dip 2 days ago and it was fine when I made it, then I ate some out of the fridge last night and had a VERY hard time getting out of bed this morning...could it have too much glutamate in it now? I've also been trying to cook things like pasta and beans slower and at lower temperatures, is that right? Does reheating in the microwave free glutamates? Thank you
|Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 11:00 am: || |
Hi Annie. I often eat last night's leftovers for lunch. But if I have lots left over, I will freeze that. I make little lunches in several freezer containers and they are great for fast meals later. Beans are naturally high in glutamate, and that can break down into the more easily absorbed free glutamate via bacterial fermentation in the fridge...along with the added boost from any acid present in the food. Yes, I do cook beans on low heat, but I do boil pasta. There is more glutamate in meat and tomatoes than pasta, pound for pound, I believe. I try to find pastas from Italy, as they have fewer additives.
|Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 3:19 pm: || |
Annie good luck with this new endeaver of healing yourself. You will find all the help you need here. I freeze everything I make even if I might eat it the next day just to be sure. It is a process here not an event. It will not be all better overnight, but it will improve daily if you stay with it. When I use ibuprofen I always rinse the outer coating off of it. I was able to get a prescription strength ibu. from my doctor when I had surgery recently and he said it has no coating on it. So I asked for a script for it from my primary care doctor, he knows all about my msg and it's cousins problem and was happy to do it for me. Cheaper than having it compounded at a specialty pharmacy. I rarely need it anymore. And by the way my primary care doctor and my chiropractor have given my number to patients to talk about additives when they see it is necessary. With my permission of course. Good luck Mariann
|Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2010 - 6:38 pm: || |
Thanks for all the encouragement, ya'll! I really appreciate it.
So, yesterday morning I was driving around running errands, feeling really good, until my Concerta (slow-release Ritalin) kicked in, and suddenly my same dose that I've been taking for years felt like WAY too much! I also didn't feel like it was really working, because I wasn't able to focus and seemed extremely "ADD" all day. I've been wanting to stop taking it anyways, so today I called my doctor and he gave me the thumbs up and I didn't take any. I bet I don't even "need" it anymore...I hope not!
On the other hand, now that my body seems to be clear from most of the toxins, I've noticed that caffeine doesn't seem to affect me so strongly (I almost NEVER drink caffeine--if I do, it's an unsweetened ice tea or hot green tea). Usually after 2 glasses of ice tea I am getting quite jittery. Not so in the past week! And I noticed this before I quit taking Concerta.
Not that I'm planning on loading up on caffeine--I just thought it was interesting!
|Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 1:02 am: || |
Hi Annie, Ive been reading your posts with interest. Especially regarding the Ritalin and ADD. I have a two year old daughter that has severe reactions to MSG. She was always agitated and hyper. She didnt sleep for more than two or three hours at a time for her first fourteen months. On waking she would then be awake for a few hours before sleeping again. By fourteen months she was showing worrying habits such as spinning and lack of concentration. The health nurse had serious concerns regarding her behaviour. She was too young to assess for any particular disorder. On removing MSG and all other additives, indeed all processed food, she has caught up on all her milestones and is now ahead.She is two tomorrow and the little baby that couldnt keep still can now sit and play for hours on end, totally enthralled in what she is doing. She sleeps 12 hours a night with only one waking. I really believe we were well on our way to a child with ADD at the very least. She is now happy and content so long as we stick to safe eating. The one thing that she does react to that has no added msg is bread. She can tolerate half a slice a day of homemade whole meal bread but more than that and her concentration levels drop off rapidly and she becomes agitated and hyper.
I just thought you may find that interesting given your own ADD diagnosis. I hope you continue on your road to recovery. Ali
|Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 9:19 am: || |
Annie, that's good news about the Concerta. Just be sure to wean yourself off any strong drug slowly. Cut off 1/4 or 1/3 for a week or so, and then cut back some more for a week or so. You may have some withdrawal, but don't be tempted to go back on it right away. I read an article by a doctor against Ritalin. Some parents reported that they didn't like what it was doing to their child, so they took them off of it right away. The child, naturally got worse in a withdrawal type reaction, but not knowing that, the parent brought the child to the doctor again who immediately increased the dosage. It happens a lot.
|Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2010 - 5:06 pm: || |
Yes, the withdrawals are NOT fun. I didn't take any yesterday or today and I felt AWFUL. So I finally chopped one and took a little piece around 5pm and felt MUCH better. I can only imagine what it's like for a child who doesn't really understand what's really going on. Poor babies, addicted to speed :'(
Last summer I did quit my Concerta abruptly when the doctor said my blood pressure was through the roof (it had always been low to normal before) and when it still didn't go down, he put me on medication. I've been eating on the new diet for over a month and I'd love to check my blood pressure...but my little electric monitor I have at home keeps erroring out! It checks my roommate's just fine, but 2 weeks into the diet it stopped giving me a reading. I'm not doing anything wrong, I could always do it fine before, so I don't know what's going on with it...weird. I do kind of feel like a zombie...so exhausted. The magnesium orotate powder is definitely helping though.
I'm ready to start feeling better!!! I know it takes time, and I'm not going to give up. I refuse! I think that my diet change was just so drastic--from eating out every day to cooking only whole, organic foods! I found a little article/explanation that really describes, I think, what I've been going through...here is the link!
|Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 9:11 am: || |
a quick note, Ali... my older boy reacted soooo similarly when he was about the same age as your smallest one... naturally we ran all the tests and went GFCF and the whole deal...
(altho w/o much improvement until we were able to pin many of his other sensitivities: ie soy-egg-dairy-canola-additives-aluminum-etc, and reduce his toxic metals load. but that was just how it was for him)
...turned out in his case, he could eat plain white flour tortillas (flour-salt-baking soda-water only) and plain organic white Sourdough Bread (flour-salt-yeast-culture) with NO problems even tho at that age virtually every other grain/starch was wreaking hyperactive havoc!
ive never known what that magic is but we pretty much still stick to it (altho with age and trigger avoidance he has developed a bit of tolerance- now its mostly the tourettes that crops up when he's overdone it) ...just thought i'd mention our experience in case it also rings a bell for you
glad to hear your littlest one is doing sooo much better! now you can ALL rest at nite
|Posted on Friday, October 08, 2010 - 11:56 pm: || |
Thanks for the input Bo'nana. Im now even more baffled by the bread scenario as yesterday she was two and i made a birthday cake with plain white flour. She hadnt eaten any wheat for over a week and i allowed her a piece of cake and no reaction whatsever. She didnt go red like i expected, no aggitation and slept well. She was up at 6 all smiles. I gave her the cake, knowing that she hadnt had any wheat, and to see was there a reaction. I fully expected some reaction, but nothing. Which makes me wonder if its the yeast in the bread???? I just dont get it. I dont like to experiment on her obviously so have decided just not to give her any bread with yeast in it.Im going to try her on Kirstys quick bread again and see what happens.
Im 99'9% sure most of her problems were (its good to use the past tense there!!) msg related. My son had the same food issues at a year old back in 1997 before i had the wealth of information available on line today. After much trial and error i compiled a list of sure triggers to his behaviour. It was a very comprehensive list and an odd list too...i couldnt see any pattern to it. MSG was on the list of course. I didnt know then the names for other msg sources. People thought i was barking mad with the list of things he was under no circumstances allowed to eat. And what do you know, when i started having the same problems with my youngest and got a list of hidden msg sources on line, EVERY single thing on my eldests "not to eat" list was on there. Every single thing!!! And eliminating those same things has stopped my youngests symptoms too. (We still have the odd hic-up...)
Thanks Bo for sharing. Ill check my flours to see is there anyother grain in there.
|Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2010 - 5:09 am: || |
Probably stating the obvious, but Breads may contain Dough conditioner and other FGA/MSG ingredients too.
|Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2010 - 5:47 am: || |
You're right there Evelyn. Its hard work to find a prepacked bread without dough conditioners, not to mention other horrors. Not long ago when i first started on this journey i picked up a loaf in the supermarket and read the label. No less than 20 ingredients!! 20!!!! I mean, why??? The mind boggles. Ive mentioned on here before about Polish bread. We are fortunate to have a polish bakery in town that uses just basic ingredients. Not sure you have Polish bakeries in the states?
Everyone does alright wiht this bread aside from me and my youngest. It certainly doesnt agree with her and i get ibs with too much bread of any kind. I make my own whole meal bread when i have the time and im fine with that( but i dont eat it daily!) and she can tolerate a little too. Either we have a sensitivity to wheat ( i think i read its high in glutamate) or the yeast is an issue. Cant quite figure it out, so we just keep bread to a minimum. Thanks Evelyn.
|Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2010 - 1:14 pm: || |
I don't think we have Polish hardly anything in the states! The one thing I miss most about living in Germany is the bread. I loved stopping by the bakery every day and getting a pretzel or loaf of bread!
I'm slowly reducing my Concerta (ritalin) dosage still. Today I went from 3/4 a pill to 1/2. Not pleasant! But, it's not terrible, either. I just feel anxiety...it comes and goes. I'm also pretty fatigued. It's still hard to tell what's drugs, what's hormones, and what's food, though. (I'm also on my sugar pill week of b.c.)
I'm going out with a friend to our favorite sushi place tonight...I already know not to eat the seaweed, obviously not the sauces...does anyone have problems with edamame? I ate tofu last week with no problems, so I think I'll try it.
The other day I ate some "cheesy sauce" which I had made myself, which involves food processing tomatoes and cashews together...it was good the first day...then I refrigerated it like an idiot instead of froze it. I ate TWO bites the next day and IMMEDIATELY knew I had messed up. My heart started racing right away and I put it back down. That didn't last long, luckily, but later I ended up spending pretty much the whole night in the bathroom! Makes me wonder how in the world I was even ALIVE before!!! I mean, seriously, how does that work? It's crazy!
|Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2010 - 4:30 pm: || |
Edamame is soy beans. Edamame are often additionally seasoned with soy sauce and other forms of soy. Many, perhaps even most, of us here on the board have a problem with any form of soy. Since you previously ate tofu this may not apply to you.
Some people on the board report that they get more sensative over time and to more things, I know I did.
|Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2010 - 1:44 pm: || |
Well I ate the edamame with no problems. I didn't eat very much, though...I took it easy just to see if it was ok! I also ended up ordering the sushi ingredients thrown in a bowl since they couldn't wrap it up without the seaweed or soy paper (ingredients in soy paper were soy protein, cornstarch, etc...) I was a little worried about the white rice since I haven't had anything but brown yet, but it was fine!
I went to the doctor today since I still have diarrhea every day and he's having my blood checked for vitamin deficiencies and (gulp) thyroid function...so I'll know about those results in a week...
|Posted on Friday, December 10, 2010 - 5:13 pm: || |
Hi everyone, I just wanted to give you all an update on my recovery!
So, my thyroid and everything was normal...the only thing wrong was that my B-12 levels were super low, so I am taking a supplement everyday (specifically, "No Shot B-12 Methylcabalamin by Superior Source"). The second or third day I took them, I felt giddy. I was laughing myself awake in the morning and laughing myself to sleep. I feel SO much better. It also got rid of all those pesky little twitches I was having, you know, like in your eyelids...that kind. I feel more energetic.
Since I've changed my diet, I've made drastic improvements! Some were completely unexpected...like my toenails. I've had thick yellow gross big toenails since I was a little girl. They turned into normal toenails. Like, they didn't even have to grow out or anything...they just went normal. I had had them tested years ago for fungus and it came back negative, and the doctor had no answers for me, so I've just always had thick toenails (just the big toes). Well, not anymore!
I sleep a LOT better. I've had insomnia forever and I've noticed in these past few months that when I've been poisoned, I can't sleep. Luckily the poisonings are fairly rare. My last one was when I ate goat cheese with "vegetal rennet" instead of regular rennet. My joints were killing me all the next day, and I had woken up at 3am with both legs KILLING me, and could not go back to sleep.
I have a lot of nightmares and weird dreams about food, because it has become kind of scary...especially when I'm traveling and don't have my kitchen. It's stressful. But, I haven't starved to death, and I'm SO much better than I was before I cleaned up!
I mean...OMG...it's December and I DON'T FEEL SEASONAL DEPRESSION. It's unheard of!!! It could be mid-summer for all I care! Maybe I could even live in Portland, OR again! I went there for college and had seasonal depression so bad my last semester that I failed 2 of my classes and even got cavities because I didn't even feel like brushing my teeth. I can't BELIEVE how happy I am right now and we're off daylight savings and it gets dark at 5pm...AMAZING.
Oh yeah! I don't get sick in the car anymore when I read! I've NEVER been able to read in the car, it would make me feel so nauseous. The ONLY reason I even TRIED to read in the car was that my parents scooped me up to visit my brother in St. Louis, which is an 8 hour drive, and I had just seen the new Harry Potter movie and was busy reading the book again, and I was dying to read it. I figured, I'd read for about 5 minutes until I started to feel sick and then stop. Well, I never felt sick. I read for hours!!! Incredible!
Let's see...what else? I've gotten off Ritalin. I'm still taking blood pressure meds but the last time I went to the doctor I had drunk a lot of ice tea and I am very sensitive to caffeine...so we'll see when I go on Monday. However, since quitting the Ritalin, I've noticed that caffeine actually has a sedative effect on me, just like when I was a little girl. I've never done well with caffeine, ever. It always either made me too jittery, made me unable to sleep all night, or made me drowsy and/or dizzy. When I was 9 years old I remember I drank a Jolt Cola and fell right to sleep on the couch. Well now I can't eat 2 squares of dark chocolate without getting drowsy. So, I eat them right before bedtime, if I eat them at all. By the way, I get the kind without lecithin, it's called "Alter Eco Fair Trade Dark Chocolate Quinoa Midnight Crunch." Ingredients are: Cocoa Mass, Cane sugar, cocoa butter, rice-quinoa crisps." Does that sound ok for no-MSG'ers? Or am I giving myself a reaction? I'm just assuming it's the caffeine. I never drink tea anymore, just water and sparkling mineral water and occasional organic orange juice.
Anyways, I am doing SO much better than I was prior to my discovery. My mom kept commenting on the color I have in my cheeks now. "Your cheeks were NEVER rosy--even when you were a little girl!" she'll say. And I can tell when I've been poisoned because the color drains right back out of them.
|Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 12:56 am: || |
WOW!!! Thats just amazing!! Thanks for sharing your recovery Annie. If anyone needed any inspiration to try and cut out the poison in their food, its right there in your wonderful post. Im so happy for you!! Heres to a long and happy msg free life!!
The toenails thing is amazing. And guess what, ive got no little toe nails, they just get thick and fall off, always have done. Havent thought about them in years. Ive just looked down at my bare feet and guess what...I have toe nails on my little toes. They are far from perfect but just the fact they are there is quite astounding and id never even noticed!! hehe
|Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 3:13 am: || |
More on toenail loss:
|Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 8:25 am: || |
That's great news, thank you so much for sharing!
|Posted on Saturday, December 11, 2010 - 3:48 pm: || |
odd...so im kinda wondering if "digestive trauma" (read, dietary poisoning) might account for the wierd toenail thing...
cause annie & ali, what you both said has always applied to me too!
and i know its not nail fungus, my mom had that for years so please believe me when i say i DO know the difference (-EW!! :P) ...or physical trauma, tight shoes, or any of the other usual interpretations- i grew up in the desert, you see- most of the year i went around with either flipflops, or no shoes at all. Always plenty of nice hot dry sunshine hitting these feetses, until moving to the NW about 7 years ago
but like u guys, since childhood i too have always just had these really wierd, super thick, yellowish coloured BIG toenail and either 'barely there' or no pinky toenails at all.
sometime this past summer, i too noticed that my big toes can now go without colour polish to hide them for the first time since middleschool, and i started avoiding msg/fga last spring. also i now have nearly normal pinky nails, the first i can ever remember... i hadnt made any sort of connection before, actually i hadnt really thought about it except that it was kinda nice for a change... but then, i'd never heard of anyone else having this funky nail thing before either...
to quote another "alice" (hee hee)...
this all just gets curiouser and curiouser
|Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 12:28 am: || |
It does indeed Bo'nana. I gave up on my toenails years ago. I know its not a fungal thing after analysis showed none years ago. I'm a barefoot sort of girl indoors and only wear footwear outdoors. It doesnt clear in the summer when all i wear are sandals. I gave up even looking at my little toe nails years ago. I just blob a bit of polish on the skin (as you do!!) Then reading Annies mail i glanced down and there they were, two little pinkie toe nails. Its a bit baffling isnt it!! It was just after Christmas last year when i finally banned all fga and msg from our house and our diet as much as is humanly possible.
Going a bit off topic ive suspected for a while that sulfites caused my exzema. Just a gut feeling!! Well its mince pie season and my eczema has flared up. I finally found organic currants and raisans to make my mincemeat with over a week or so ago. And my eczema is clearing again. So im pretty sure that that is the eczema trigger for me. Just thought id add that incase anyone else found my findings useful. My daughters flared up too but is now clearing.
|Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2010 - 6:05 am: || |
Annie - awesome and amazing! I remember your early posts and it didnt' seem you had much hope, but were willing to try. What a fabulous reward. So glad you were able to get such a wonderful result!
One thing I found most interesting with a clean diet, besides my lifelong excema disappearing was that I had healthy fingernails for the first time - the fingers I had excema on always had thin ridgy nails but even the nails that were otherwise healthy looking enough, though never very strong would curl if the got longer than the end of my finger. Now they are perfectly straight and normal.
I did have a reaction the other day, because despite my best efforts, I am not always able to eat where I want when travelling. Had to attend a company meal and thought I had chose carefully. Steak with salt and pepper only (not a chain restaurant, so food is fresh cooked) and mixed veggies. The veggies had lots of herbs and spices, but they claimed they were all fresh - I don't believe that to be true, now.
It took a full 24hrs before I reacted and since it was a late night meal, that was the next evening at bed time. I slept for 10hrs (for teh 2nd time in my life, the other time I had the flu) and my daughter woke me, but I was unable to get the grogginess out all day. I lay on the couch and rested or slept, mostly. I also had a nasty asthmatic cough - but no muscle symptoms. I found that odd, since I always attributed the cough to times when I was "really" sick - ie. had gotten a large dose of msg. No I am wondering, after a reaction a few weeks ago that included wheezing cough, that I may be having an issue with a spice or spice additive. Trying to narrow it down, and will search, but the one I have at home that caused me a problem has silicon dioxide...
Rambling about my own issue, when I really got on to tell Annie how happy I am for her awesome result. Keep up the good work, Lady!!
|Posted on Monday, December 13, 2010 - 8:47 am: || |
Thanks for all the feedback! That's so cool to hear other people's nails have gotten better! I hadn't read anything on here about that but I had been paying attention to my own nails, suspicious that they might get better with the diet, since I had never gotten a real diagnosis from a doctor as to why they were yellow. It was just one of those weird nondescript symptoms I had, like the hives when I was little...
So, I am about to embark on my next adventure...I am going to South Korea to teach English for a year! I'm going to post about it on another thread and see if anyone knows about Korean food...I'm nervous about that to say the least! I mean, I don't know Korean, so I'm really going to have to eat completely whole foods that I can tell exactly what they are! I can't read labels there! Scary! I am not allowed to get sick there or miss any school...
|Posted on Monday, December 13, 2010 - 10:58 am: || |
EEK! but also congratulations... how exciting, really!
i have noticed that food in american korean markets seems much fresher than the chinese food stores, so maybe that will prove the case there as well, maybe msg is not such an issue there yet...
|Posted on Monday, December 13, 2010 - 11:47 am: || |
ali, i wanted to respond to your comments on eczema and the dried fruit... could definitely be sulphites sensitivity of course, but i wanted to tell you about something else that is ringing a bell with me-
fluorides, believe it or not!
its such a coincidence, but for 2 weeks i too have been having such a similar issue. 2 days after thanksgiving, i woke up with a red rashy chin and a big red raised/scaly patch under my right eye. initially i chalked it up to a delayed reaction to the conventional turkey or other holiday goodies, and/or to having a reaction from the bleach id used to clean nasty rust stains from the bathroom fixtures the nite before (a dilute droplet had splashed up where the worst patch appeared).... i am VERY sensitive to Chlorine, but even so, every once in a blue moon i get where i simply cant take the stained porcelain anymore, so...
anyway, none of my usual remedies were helping in the least, and every day it just spread a little more, got more itchy/burny & uncomfortable... when it ended up affecting my lips and started spreading up my temples to my forehead, i realized its not going to clear up unless i manage to figure out what IT is...
after lots & lots of googling, i learned:
a) Perioral Dermatitis is what i have
b) it can be triggered by Fluoride (excess/sensitivity)
c) malassezia yeast overgrowth goes right along with it- a normally benign skin yeast that lives on virtually everyone, malasezzia can go pathogenic if immunocompromised
d) same yeast is also responsible for pitysporum rashes- which i also have
e) Fluoride is part of a class of Halide chemicals that includes chloride (chlorine), bromide (bromine ie in breads), and Iodine.
f) deficiency in Iodine will result in excess storage/sensitivity to the other halides, especially chlorine and fluorides...
g) sufficient vitamin C among other things is necessary for sufficient Iodine uptake, but not required for fluoride and chlorine which are very easily absorbed (ive also been low in vitamin c lately, ive discovered- bleeding gums, etc)
h) Vitamin C is also required to neutralize the other Halides, at the same time it is 'switching on' the Iodine pathways
i) Black, Green, Oolong and Redbush teas are all astoundingly high in Fluorides, they have a strong affinity & pull it from the soil and from chem ag fertilizers
(ding ding ding- i had just switched to drinking a couple cups of a nice Earl Grey every day since thanksgiving, in an effort to cut down on the coffee! grrr...)
and finally, the one that made me think of you:
j) White Grapes, the kind that are made into Raisins are the other food that lists as exceedingly high in fluorides- not quite such crazy high levels as teas, but- possibly still the trigger, eh? especially if you are a tea drinker allready...
if, then, therefore... man, what a flow chart all that would make
anyway, i ditched the tea in favor of orange juice and quit eating raisins 3 days ago, and have been washing with dilute raw cider vinegar and applying fresh plain wholemilk yogurt, and allready i am seeing a HUGE improvement in what conventional med wisdom insists is usually a longterm chronic condition requiring gobs of nasty chem pharma...
|Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2010 - 10:52 pm: || |
Hi Bonana, thats an interesting post. I will read later properly and digest the information and have a think about it. But my youngest has a terrible time with conventional toothpaste i always put down to glutamate. Have you read the ingredients list??? Scary stuff I have now got her using Welda toothpaste and no problems at all. Aside from the usual behaviour problems i attribute to glutamate, she gets very dry sore lips spreading onto surrounding skin wiht conventional toothpaste. Could be flouride??? And given what you say about the raisons that would tie in wiht the eczema. mmmm, food for thought.
I had a bad day with her yesterday after a mishap wiht an empty sweet box. I collected some empty boxes from the sweetshop. YOu know the plastic containers with lids that the little sweets come in. I usually wash them thouroughly and use them for storage. Well the girl in the shop had already rinsed them so they just got put in the hall. Not an hour later my little one started to go bright red in the face and highpitched screaming. A very sudden and severe reaction. I noticed her hands were covered in white sugary stuff. She had been playing with the boxes and licking the sweet coating out of a box that hadnt been rinsed. She has been up half the night and is itchy, grumpy, wide eyed and very destructive. The most blatant severe reaction i have had with her. At least it has yet again confirmed what i already new!! Perhaps a warning for the holiday season!! Its so hard for the little ones seeing all those prepackaged selection boxes of chocolates and candy they cant eat. Ive got two big shoe boxes and covered them in disney gift paper. I have lots of coloured tissue paper and im going to make their favourite treats bite size and wrap little parcels and fill the boxes with goodies for under the tree. They will be mightily impressed that Father Christmas wnet to so much touble to keep them safe..thats my line anyway!! we shall see.
|Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2010 - 7:43 am: || |
ali, I hated to hear of your little one's troubles. It sounds like you have an excellent idea for Xmas gifts. My kids do great with Reed's ginger chews but they are not the best for little kids. You might find some other treats on this list: http://corn-freefoods.blogspot.com/2007/12/corn-free-foods-products-list-dec-2007.html
Not everything on the list will be safe and you may not have some of these available near you, but it could give you ideas.
BTW, next time your daughter has such reactions, try giving her an epsom salts bath. It helps to mellow out our reactions some - it really helps with the tight neck and joint pains, too. You might want to try the Tri-salts, too.
|Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 12:19 am: || |
Thanks for the tip with the epsom salts Kirsty. I will be sure to try that next time. ( sadly i know there will be a next time ) But its the first severe reaction we have had in a good while, so we are getting by wiht minimum upset for her. We can go a month or more at a time now with no problems at all. She is just about levelling out today after another restless night. It upsets her sleep for days and days.
Ill be sure to look at the website for treat ideas for the girls. Im quite lucky that they can eat plain cadburys milk chocolate (it has that little word flavourings in the ingredients, but they dont react!!) and Lays ready salted crisps, oh and walkers shortbread for a special treat. Generally i make my own shortbread as the walkers is a bit pricy but great for a christmas stocking filler!! I think im covered for this christmas. Im off now to make an attempt at making cranberry sauce...i thought id better do a trial run rather than be left with something inedible come christmas day hehehe!!
|Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 4:05 am: || |
I made cranberry sauce for Thanksgiving Ali - very easy and much nicer than from a can. My son liked it so much, he continues to use it to make sandwiches for school!
Used this recipe from simplyrecipes.com, but chopped the berries in a food processor first (so didn't have the 'done indicator' of burst berries). I added only spices and zest:
Cranberry Sauce Recipe
1 cup (200 g) sugar
1 cup (250 mL) water
4 cups (1 12-oz package) fresh or frozen cranberries
Optional Pecans, orange zest, raisins, currants, blueberries, cinnamon, nutmeg, allspice.
1 Wash and pick over cranberries. In a saucepan bring to a boil water and sugar, stirring to dissolve sugar. Add cranberries, return to a boil. Reduce heat, simmer for 10 minutes or until cranberries burst.
2 At this point you can add all number of optional ingredients. We typically mix in a half a cup of roughly chopped pecans with or without a few strips of orange zest. You can add a cup of raisins or currants. You can add up to a pint of fresh or frozen blueberries for added sweetness. Spices such as cinnamon, nutmeg or allspice can be added too.
3 Remove from heat. Cool completely at room temperature and then chill in refrigerator. Cranberry sauce will thicken as it cools.
Cranberry sauce base makes 2 1/4 cups.
|Posted on Friday, December 17, 2010 - 11:57 am: || |
Thanks Evelyn. Thats pretty much what i did without the optionals. Its nice but i think i ll have a rerun with the blueberries and allspice. mmmmm!!
|Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 9:46 am: || |
Thanks for sharing your recipe evelyn, that sounds easy and delicious. I just may give it a try for the holidays.
|Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2010 - 7:48 pm: || |
mmmm... BLUEBERRIES. must try that!!
|Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 4:08 pm: || |
That's how we make the cranberry sauce, except we use orange juice instead of water. I don't add any of the optional ingredients, and it's really yummy! I love to mix it right in with my mashed potatoes, vegetarian gravy, and "Neat Loaf!" Yum yum.