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Battling the MSG Myth » Archive » Sharing Scientific Information « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Brain ChemistryDeb A.125 5-20-01  3:38 pm
The Liver and MSGCarol H3-25-01  7:55 am
MSG and the PancreasCarol H10 2-25-01  7:35 am
Hypoglycemia and allergiesAnonymous31 8-15-01  6:48 pm
MSG Bi Polar and anxietyDeb S1-28-01  5:52 pm
About CoQ10Carol H113 10-22-01  1:31 pm
Why MSG sensitivity may build up.Anonymous4-03-01  6:51 am
Heart Health InfoDeb A.4-19-01  10:57 am
Naicin, Vitamin B6, corn, CoQ10Anonymous8-26-01  8:23 am
Test strips for detection of msg in foodDeb A.5-21-01  3:58 pm
MSG and "allergic" responseJudy T13 8-30-01  5:16 am
Blood Brain Barrier - Flavonoid treatmentCarol H8-05-01  11:30 am
Glutamate and the Urea CycleDeb A.8-15-01  4:39 pm
Texturized vegatable protein short course tripAnon109 11-01-01  1:08 pm
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Author Message
Carol H
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 4:46 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've been thinking long and hard about the natural vs processed free glutamic acid argument and it has bothered me for some time. I know that Jack Samuels proposes that it is this difference that keeps some from reacting to "naturally occuring" MSG, but I worry if this may weaken our argument against MSG as a food additive. You see, glutamate, even the naturally occurring kind, triggers nerve cells to fire. Excesses in individuals like those with ALS, causes brain cell death. I don't think there is a difference here. (It's like natural sucrose or processed sucrose, diabetics will have trouble either way.) I venture there may be other protective substances in foods with "naturally occurring" glutamate. For example, in researching GABA, thanks to Ben's posting, I repeatedly find that GABA, an inhibitory neurotransmitter which is the end product of glutamate,is found in large amounts in fresh tomatoes. Probably because glutamate, in the presence of vitamins B6 and C converts to GABA. In naturally occurring foods high in free glutamate with these vitamins intact, GABA should also be present. Also, these vitamins help the body make GABA from glutamate. Like taurine, GABA has a "downer" effect to counteract glutamate's "upper" effect. Anyone can tell you that vitamins stay more intact in unprocessed foods. Probably by destroying vitamins, processing has an indirect effect on our ability to deal with glutamate, by reducing the amount of GABA present, or our ability to turn glutamate into GABA. Processing is very hard on the B and C vitamins which we use to convert amino acids like glutamate.

Examples of Processing Effects on Vitamins:
Thiamin: acid stabilizes Thiamine, but heat destroys it. Canning low acid foods cuts thiamine values in half.
Riboflavin: stable to heat, but light destroys it, so glass jars are bad for riboflavin.
Vitamin C: is susceptable to the enzyme ascorbic acid oxidase, which is already present in fruits and veggies as well as microorganisms, which is why fermented foods aren't high in vitamin C any more either. This enzyme works best at about 70 degrees F. - room temp. Which means C will degrade if not refrigerated. So - vine ripen your fruits and veggies if possible, chill immediately, and keep cold till used. Remember that the water soluble vitamins are just that - water soluble. Try to use foods rich in these vitamins in dishes where you also eat the liquid they are cooked in. Cooking heat deactivates the destructive enzyme, and actually helps preserve C. Don't overcook though, you may start to oxidize C. Vitamin C is very susceptable to oxygen, so even cutting a fruit will cause a loss of vitamin C. Also, sulfites preserve C but destroy thiamin.

So, food processing and even food handling at home can keep vitamins intact or destroy them. What's the moral here? I think it proves that grandma was right, you need fresh foods, and most of all your vitamins. The water soluble vitamins and GABA may be the key to understanding why "naturally occurring" free glutamate is better tolerated than processed free glutamate.

That's your Sunday morning food processing lesson for today:)
Deb A.
Posted on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 4:49 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's great brainstorming, Carol, and I agree with all that you said. I also read that glutamate that is bound to other proteins, as it is in natural foods, and in the cells of our own bodies, has to break down into free glutamate before it can be absorbed to be used by our brain as a neurotransmitter. Normally, the body's digestive system will slowly break down the bound glutamate into free glutamic acid within a certain time frame. But when you are eating the processed glutamic acid, its peptide linkages have already been broken down in the factory and as a result, it reaches our blood and our brain 8 to 10 times faster than bound glutamic acid. I would suggest that if MSG had never been created in the factory along with d-glutamic acid (never found in nature), pyro-glutamic acid, and known careniogens and contaminants, our body could handle the natural glutamate in foods. The other(man made free glutamate) has thrown off the natural balance of things. Just brainstorming, too! Wish we could solve the world's problems this way!!! Ha Ha!
Frank
Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2000 - 6:01 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is a pretty good site:

http://www.mrbean.net.au/~wlast/contents.htm
Judy
Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2000 - 3:13 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Frank: I enjoy all sites. This is interesting. Thanks.
Judy
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2000 - 1:13 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Deb A: These three research studies are probably in your files, but just in case:
(1)Journal of the American Dietetic Assoc, July 1997, v97, n7, p.793(2) "We think your son has Lennox-Gastaut syndrome" a case study of monosodium glutamates effect on a child" by Anne Shovic, etc.
(2)Dissertation Abstract. "A Study of Know Excitotoxic Compounds and Isolated Nonprotein....." University of Texas at Austin, 1996. Abstract: "Excitotoxicity may be a common mechanism of neuronal cell death underlying many forms of neurological dysfunction..."
(3) Dissertation, University of Rochester, 1998. Abstract: "There is substantial evidence suggesting abnormalities in both energy metabolism and glutamate neurotransmission in a variety of human neurological disorders..."

I have about 10 other titles that refer to Parkinsons, schizophrenia, etc., but thought these most related to children and may help in the brochure project. I can scan these and send more info to you if you would like.
Deb A.
Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2000 - 12:53 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Judy! Your input is valuable. Thank you so much.
One problem we have with CHADD is that most of its leaders take a very positive approach to drug use to treat the disorders. Most mothers are appalled by the suggestion that the food that they are feeding them would be harming their children. Their children are in such a crisis already, the thought of "depriving" them of their favorite treats threatens them even more. In addition, most parents are still more willing to buy into what the ADD an ADHD "specialists" tell them and prefer drugs to having to actually change how they eat. (and it's easier to pop a pill) THAT is what we are up against...convincing the leaders of CHADD that what they have been spouting from their pulpits at conventions all over the country for years about drug treatment is wrong. The three studies you cited will be great on the pamphlet. Any others will be welcomed. THANKS!!!!
Don Campbell
Posted on Friday, September 21, 2001 - 9:54 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes Carol H, you are incredible. I've been following your writing on both sites. You are beautiful. My input; Are people reacting to natural glutamates only when their body's capability of handling them is overridden and the balance is off? Is it only people that are beginning to detoxify that are reacting? Is anybody reacting that has known about the poison for some time and has eliminated it from their diet? All I got to do know is get someone here who is awake and participating. It's been 10 months since someone was on this board and Carol is so brilliant and alone. How small is this group that sees the truth? Want to meet you someday all. Don Campbell donscampin@prismlink.net
DJ
Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 2:20 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi,

I would like to know the answer to Don's questions as well, Carole H.

Also, as I have asked before..is there any damage being done when reactions are from natural glutamates.

Thanks
DJ
Carol H
Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 4:20 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don, thanks for the compliments. Actually, Tom Fernstrom, Roy Piwovar and Deb A have been key. I feel like my ideas all feed off theirs. As for your questions, I think MSG acts in a damaging way in all of us, since our body is quite adept at making what we need - any supplementation in the diet for anyone is excessive. MSG affects those who haven't made the connection as well as those who are detoxing. I do think not being "in balance" makes a reaction worse, and tangible. I think MSG is bad for everyone, even those who can't feel the damage - yet. As for DJ's question - glutamate in excess, natural, unnatural, and extraterrestrial (just kidding)- if it fits into the locks that cause doors in our bodies to open - pancreas/insulin doors, immune system/eosinophils doors, nerve cell stimulation doors, then it may be a problem. If it causes hypoglycemia, it will bring down the brains defenses, and as we know, even natural glutamate can be a problem in the brain in excess. If dietary glutamate, without even entering the brain, can cause a low blood sugar state, causing the pumps the brain uses to get rid of the glutamate already present to fail, then damage will be done. I admire Jack Samuels efforts over the years, but here is where our ideas part company. Glutamate anywhere in the body - even natural glutamate can be a problem in excess. If it fits into the same "locks" so to speak, it doesn't really matter to me where the heck it comes from. Manmade pesticides that are estrogen mimics can trick the body into thinking they are natural estrogens. That's the main trouble. Too much natural estrogen, as well as estrogen mimic can be a bad thing. Also, in Type I diabetes, even naturally occuring simple sugars can be trouble for someone who can't make insulin. It doesn't really matter if the sugar is "natural" or manmade. Errors of metabolism happen. Allegies happen. For someone who is allergic to carrots, like myself, even natural veggies can cause my body to shut down. I think it's more important what things can do once they get in the body, and their chemical composition, intead of whether they occur naturally or not.
Deb A.
Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2001 - 9:28 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Excellent, Carol. I remember Jack Samuels once saying that even natural glutamate is eventually broken down into free glutamic acid in the body. Isn't it just a matter of the digestive system breaking down the peptide linkages eventually?...or is that an oversimplification? I can handle under ripe tomatoes much better than ripe ones...I always thought that was due to the ripening process of breaking the peptide linkages in the natural or bound glutamate into free glutamate (fermentation). But in either case, the results will be the same, whether bound or free, once ingested, as you say.
Tom Fernstrom
Posted on Sunday, September 23, 2001 - 6:19 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don,

The difference between naturally occurring Glutamates and processed Glutamates is documented on the Truth In Labeling site at:

http://www.truthinlabeling.org/manufac.html
Carol H
Posted on Monday, September 24, 2001 - 4:09 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Deb A,
The body breaks down proteins in natural digestion. Bound glutamate will get into the bloodstream more slowly than free glutamate, because it must be broken down first. To me, free glutamic acid vs. bound matters but it's more a matter of speed and how much the body can handle quickly.
Don Campbell
Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2001 - 12:19 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Carol H, thank you, you're beautiful! I too believe that msg is affecting everyone, and I will tell stories latter, of what I am seeing in the common workplace, blue collar where not so smart people are eating a whole lot of junk, where people are underneath it because their bodies and minds are not working right. Everyone here is very functional, intelligent and prosperous. I have been on a different side of things. I posted under the nomsg site under "Monsanto will pay" and "You guys are full of it". I must relocate to a better income area to attend school. My aim in studying chemistry is to prove that this is affecting us all. It is affecting not only the pancreas/insulin doors, the immune system/eosinophils door ( and I am anxious to learn about that one, I think it may be key, and what ever happened to Su?), and the nerve cell stimulation door. It is into the respiratory system door, the thyroid(timing chain) door, and the brain, the central nervous system that controls every function. But there is a balance here that has been disrupted. Perceiving from a more holistic perspective, is there something wrong with a person going out to the garden and eating a nice ripe tomato? I belive we were created to do such. I belive that because of our manipulation of our food, we have disturbed the balance. Thank you Deb A, you are something else. Your patience amazes me. I agree with you that the speed of this process is the major factor, and that says that it is a balance concern. As you said Carol, it is when the glutamate is in excess that it affects us. But I want to show that ANY amount of PROCESSED glutamates is affecting all of us, because it is encroaching on some part of our basic systems' functioning at any given point after ingestion. Very interesting you say that hypoglycemia and conditions created by glutamate ingestion affect our basic processes without even entering the brain. But what relationship is permanent damage done to the ability of the bodies' immune system to contend with the next onslaught of glutamates. The breakdown had to occur with PROCESSED glutamates. And I will prove it somehow, someday. I hope someone else beats me though. You girls are so close. I don't know where the hell the men are at here. Is damage done to the CNA or brain or our immune system what makes us more vulnerable to glutamates? I posted some rather hostile posts on the other site and I really would like to know; what is going on with the legal battle, the court cases from years ago. Carol, you are so giving. Can you stop taking responsibility for your own bodys' reaction and take it easy on yourself? I want to learn of this estrogen connection, I see why you have been against the pollution of the water. That is a major thing. I wonder about the stability of processed free glutamates affecting us from Oxygrow getting into our water supply. How long are the glutamates still active after getting into it, and how potent are they? I do sincerely wish to talk with one of you for a short phone conversation. My phone # is (386-255-4982). Long to meet you, and Carol my thoughts are inspired by all your great work. donscampin@aol.com,donscampin@prismlink.net.PS, You all have suffered more than me with this. Carol, I have wondered why carrots smell like turpentine.
Don Campbell
Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2001 - 1:14 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am curious also. It seems that different people are susceptible to different forms of this poison. One can eat poisoned grains and a have a respiratory reaction ,while another can eat poisoned meat and have a blood pressure reaction. And another can ingest sugar or fruit poison and have a sugar/insulin imbalance. There are a few basic food groups and there are a few basic ways that this poison is being created by the food processors squeezing the life out of each, Could there be a correspondence to each, directly to each basic system that we function with. Is not the bread of life something we must not try to preserve and sell? I keep thinking; Grains-nervous system, respiratory. Meat- blood pressure, thyroid, weight imbalance. Sugar (fruit derivatives and substitutes)-type 1 diabetes, hypoglycemia. Vegetables- digestive disorders, and who knows what, Much speculation here, a thought for conversation.
Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2001 - 5:02 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For whatever it is worth, my very unscientific observation is that I have noted that the major portion of the MSG reactions are centered in areas of the body that were weak prior to the MSG sensitivity developing. For example, I had preventative radiation for a localized cancer in my lower areas many years ago and since then, I had a sensitive digestive system. Then, more than 10 years later I began to react to MSG with severe digestive problems (e.g., immediate bloating, terrible cramps, dumping and d. within 5 minutes to 2 hours).
Don Campbell
Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2001 - 11:33 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, I've noticed that also. In MS (multiple sclerosis) people the problem is exposed nervous system. When a part of the cns (central nervous system) is exposed to glutamate attacks is when we experience reactions. MS seems to come and go for this reason. The scientists speculate that people who contract MS have had their cns barrier, the blood-brain barrier damaged at some point in their life, thus allowing the myelin sheath (protective covering of the nerves) to be attacked by their own immune systems. I venture to say that processed glutamates are doing such damage alone though, in other parts of the cns. The eveidence is in the effects on children, ADT, asthma, ect.
Carol H
Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 4:55 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, it's up. I just have to flesh out the links and the data. But http://www.msgtruth.org is up and running.
Carol H
Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 5:11 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

P.S. Roy, I wonder if you could do some sleuthing and try to find out what shameless corporate huckster is behind the msg.org site which is clearly a glossy ad for the Glutes. How they get away with the .org extension is beyond me.
Roy Piwovar
Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 8:06 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Carol H,

I can't find the site you mention. There is only one www.msg.org, and in their case "msg" is an abbreviation for something else.
Carol H
Posted on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 2:35 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://www.msg.org.au/main.html It's an Australian site.
Roy Piwovar
Posted on Friday, October 26, 2001 - 6:45 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Carol H,

All trails from the msg.org.au site lead to the last listing on msg.org.au's "links" page,
http://www.msg.org.au/links.html ,

which has the following in its web site:
http://www.msgfacts.com/aboutus.html

Surprised?
MEMorrisNJ
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 6:42 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

All - Pls visit the sites that Carol & Roy posted to learn more about the "glute" industry. They made me sick just looking at them! Imagine how they are influencing the food industry and the general public who has yet to hear the message here and realize the impact on everyone's health. Thanks Carol & Roy --- you're posts are always helpful.
Carol H
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 10:34 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Roy. Surprised, no, appalled, yes.
Gerry Bush
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 11:13 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, ditto for me too! I am appalled.
Carol H
Posted on Monday, October 29, 2001 - 6:13 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey, guys. Found a great website that tells all about taurine. I couldn't have done it better myself. http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/taurine_chmr.htm The whole MSG interfering with taurine is explained well. Gall bladder troubles are mentioned. Food sources are listed, and guess what? Shrimp is high in taurine.
MEMorrisNJ
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 5:50 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you Carol. That was a great web site.

By using the search engine at http://www.google.com, I found the following two web sites that may particularly be of interest to you Carol and perhaps others -- I must admit I don't understand it all

Therapeutic Applications of Taurine: http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/taurine3-2.html

Taurine and hypotaurine metabolism - Reference pathway: http://www.genome.ad.jp/kegg/pathway/map/map00430.html

At http://www.thewayup.com/newsletters/011500.htm I learned that taurine at high dosages may make you chilly and you should avoid it if you have ulcers or gastritis. Do not take taurine if you are taking chemotherapy per references at http://www.chiroweb.com/find/tellmeabout/taurine.html .

Does anyone have details re how/when to take taurine to help with MSG and toxic exposures? I see at http://www.wholehealthmd.com/print/view/1,1560,SU_10059,00.html that you should take it on an empty stomach if you are taking it for angina, arrthymia or epilepsy; however, this restriction doesn't apply for those taking it for high blood pressure.
Carol H
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 7:03 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you, MEMorris. One side effect I have noticed with taurine. Although it has helped me greatly and still does, if I take too much, I do get depressed. It is after all, inhibitory. A downer.
MEMorrisNJ
Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 6:30 am:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sulfur bearing antioxidants (which includes taurine) are mentioned here to counteract serious toxins --- http://www.sdm2000.com/toxinreport.doc
---- its well worth reading section entitled "Natural rescue remedies" on 4th page.
And Carol, thanks for f/b on taurine being inhibitory.
Don Campbell
Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 10:46 pm:   Delete PostPrint Post   Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well I can't believe I have to post this, but, you know what? I drink. I drink a lot of beer, which is loaded with natural taurine, and apparently the natural catalysts for the depression also, because I feel great physically and mentally. Beer, what a concept. Take it back to the basics and get off the synthetics. Also, if that last reference (which involved the psychofritzo of the latest big scare) has any significance for anyone here, it should be that the poison of processed glutamates is very detrimental to the body and breaks down it's defenses. Now what site am I on? Oh that's right, the site for the battle against msg. You all have a beer on me, and while you are sipping, realize that the good life is but a step away when you get rid of the shit created in laboratories, the synthesized compounds that are totally lacking their natural accompanying catalysts. Read Holistic. Read Homeopathy, herbs. And get back to the issue on this site about the battle against msg.

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